'A Science of Man' to transcend 'The Man of Science'

‘A Science of Man’ to transcend ‘The Man of Science’

Psychology, which began as protest against religion, has evolved into a reaffirmation of a non material aspect of our human nature. I would say that this non material aspect is not yet readily definable but is referred to as a ‘spiritual’ aspect of our nature; this spiritual aspect transcends our material nature but need not be synonymous with that aspect of human nature that religion wishes to focus upon and define.

I think that a person who wishes to comprehend what the science of psychology offers us must hold in abeyance their inclination to dismiss anything that does not fit their present categories of knowledge. If we add to our standard ‘accept’ or ‘reject’ attitudes a button for ‘hold judgment until better informed’ we might learn much important knowledge and might just develop an understanding of what we are and why we do the things we do.

Modern depth psychology consists of varied theories interpreting the “unconscious depths” of wo/man; these theories reverse some of the earlier concepts and focus not only upon “a new conception of human personality, but a new approach to art and religions as well as change in the way we see ourselves in history.”

The principal figures in this depth psychology are Sigmund Freud and his three protégés Alfred Adler, C.G. Jung, and Otto Rank. These individuals are considered to be the Big Four depth psychology. They are like branches sprouting from the same tree trunk.

Psychology attempts to understand the modifications in human existence resulting from the changes in deeply held patterns of culture of the accustomed national or tribal ways of life before the industrial revolution. These traditional ways of the past provided “built-in psychic security for the individual…But when the old groups were physically broken up and their members were scattered in the factories of the cities, or when, for any of many reasons, the faith in their teachings was gone, the individual was left unprotected.”

The materialistic and mechanistic model of human nature that evolved from the eighteenth century Age of Enlightenment coupled with the modern success in technology has produced a citizenry in Western society that is enchanted with the view of human nature that idolizes the Man of Science.

The man in the Man of Science is a cipher. The scientific method is a process wherein the human agent is best when he or she is cleansed of many humanistic characteristics. Often a robot would better serve as the scientist than would a human.

The man in the Science of Man is center stage. The man, either he or she, is the major participant and the major object of comprehension in all activities that form the focus of a Science of Man.

I think that cognitive science coupled with the sciences of psychology, psychoanalysis, sociology, and anthropology now provide us with knowledge of human nature that makes possible a Science of Man that goes well beyond this mechanistic view of human nature. I also am led to conclude that the unconscious is the most important aspect of man and woman that must be studied in a Science of Man.

Quotes from “The Death and Rebirth of Psychology”—Ira Progoff

Questions for discussion.

Can you tolerate a mode of self-learning that includes the attitude of “hold judgment until better informed”?

Ermm . . . I guess so, but what does that have to do with the rest of your post?

Since when has the man of science ever been idolized?

I’m holding judgement on this thread until I’m better informed of what it’s about.

Is most of the OP direct quotes? If it is, don’t you think it should be in quotes or something so that we can figure out what’s what? Maybe a summary would help…

I am willing to take a hold judgment until better informed position. Hasty leaps to assumptions are not good at all. Your intro is very good. I have read all the books Freud wrote and some of the others. I also majored in psychology, but it was a while back. It could be a great thread. We will see.

It has been my impression that the “hold for better judgment” is already the default position for most science. There are individuals who vary from the credulous to the extremely skeptical, but there are usually enough scientists across that spectrum that it balances out and what gets accepted is what has, indeed, been demonstrated.

But, as those sciences have advanced, have they not grown increasingly mechanistic?

John

When I quote someone I use quotation marks.

The OP is about learning the sciences that make up a science of man. It is about trying to comprehend why humans do the things they do. It is about our infatuation with the natural sciences and our disregard for the human sciences. It is about how our educational system has failed to prepare us for comprehending new domains of knowledge.

My appeal is to adults who are not specialist but need to comprehend some basic knowledge of many domains of knowledge just to perform our roll as informed citizens of a democracy. My appeal is to adults to develop an intellectual life beyond their particular speciality.

That is not my impression. I have been reading much of Ernest Becker’s work and he offers much that can help the interested lay person to comprehend the human sciences. He calls psychology, psychoanalysis, anthropology, and sociology as being the human sciences.

Whaddaya mean “We,” Paleface? Certainly the “natural sciences” enjoy more intellectual prestige than the “human sciences” because their foundations as sciences are much firmer. But most people, if they have any intellectual interests at all, are far, far more interested in the latter. Explanatory theories of history, sociology and psychology are generally much easier to understand than those of physics and chemistry, and to most people they are also more interesting, precisely because they are about people. As for our educational system, at least in the U.S. it is woefully deficient in teaching the natural sciences.

I don’t know this Becker, but from what I read in the media, nowadays psychiatry is a lot less of “Tell me about your mother” and a lot more of chemical analysis of the brain and treatment with pills.

Depends what you mean. One of your quotes, this one:

Appears to be saying that we should continue doing what we know to be wrong, until we absolutely know what is right instead - that merely knowing X is false isn’t reason enough to abandon it, and we should hold on to X until we discover Y, which is true.

If that’s what your suggesting, I don’t like it.

Freud, I would like to point out, is depreciated. His work, while ground-breaking, is held to be entirely wrong.

Secondly, our friend’s writing strikes me remarkably similar to a number of the constructed language thinkers. I can’t remember the one I’m thinking of, it’s the one with no way to express the phrase ‘to be’ in the language.
He seems to have a mad on for Kierkegaard, and an obession with PTSD.
He’s talking about some definitely Jungian concepts, Depth Psychology and so on. I kind of thought Jung was decided to be flat-out wrong, or at least, unprovable.

He’s used some of this argument before.
http://foolmoon.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/215575/page/0/fpart/1
Actually, a lot of it. Shut-upness seems to be a term unique to him and the big K-man.

None of it really seems to make much sense, unless you believe deeply in german philosophers. I rather don’t, they seem to be taking the universe as unique to their melancholy, and expressing it as natural law.

Trying to get the picture of this:

Are you talking about using Jungian analytical psychology and perhaps its spiritual nature to understand the science of man?

Would the links below be appropriate to your debate?

http://www.explorefaith.org/steppingstones_Jung.htm

If so, I agree this would be a more helpful approach than what you call the man of science. I believe these methods would help more people faster than the current mainstream protocols.

A real deep understanding of self is indicated with these methods. So much of modern thought is directed at the chemical makeup of the individual instead of the humanity of man. While it may improve the condition it falls short of curing it.

Jung, Freud, Adler, and others used different symbols, but came to the same conclusions. Most don’t understand these writers because they take them literally. I am reminded of Freud saying: “sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.”

Good thinking.

Doesn’t your quote make the opposite point to the one you’re making? I thought the idea behind it was saying that while there are sort of mental icebergs, where a small conscious presence has a large unconscious one, there are some times when what is simple and obvious is just that. We could say a person smokes a big cigar because they have unconscious fears their manhood is small; on the other hand, maybe they just like smoking cigars.

Other than that I don’t have a problem with your post (for once! :wink: ). Psychologists can tend to focus on the chemical processes in the brain rather than the more nebulous concepts of self. But I would argue that there are plenty still who choose to study through theory-based analysis of observed responses or through study of patient-practioner dialogue. I suspect that possibly our differences in seeing how much focus on the physical aspects of the brain comes from our different ideas as to how much the physical represents the mental, though. If I thought as you did on that i’d probably agree totally.

Ernest Becker has woven a great tapestry, which represents his answer to the question ‘what are we humans doing, why are we doing it, and how can we do it better?’

Becker has written four books “Beyond Alienation”, “Escape from Evil”, “Denial of Death”, and “The Birth and Death of Meaning”; all of which are essential components of his tapestry. Ernest Becker (1924-1974), a distinguished social theorist, popular teacher of anthropology and sociology psychology, won the Pulitzer Prize for General Nonfiction for the “Denial of Death”.

Many weeks ago a forum member suggested that I might be interested in the author Ernest Becker and I was given the following web site.
http://faculty.washington.edu/nelgee/hidden/solomonsound.htm This is a great one hour audio about Becker’s ideas given by a very good lecturer.

Becker provides the reader with a broad and comprehensible synopsis of the accomplishments of the sciences of anthropology, psychology, sociology, and psychiatry. Knowledge of these accomplishments provides the modern reader with the means for the comprehension of why humans do as they do.

Becker declares that these sciences prove that humans are not genetically driven to be the evil creatures that the reader of history might conclude them to be. We humans are victims of the societies that we create in our effort to flee the anxiety of death. We have created artificial meanings that were designed to hide our anxieties from our self; in this effort we have managed to create an evil far surpassing any that our natural animal nature could cause.

Becker summarizes this synoptic journey of discovery with a suggested solution, which if we were to change the curriculums in our colleges and universities we could develop a citizenry with the necessary understanding to restructure our society in a manner less destructive and more in tune with our human nature.

The only disagreement I have with Becker’s tapestry is in this solution he offers. I am convinced that he has failed to elaborate on an important step that is implied in his work but not given sufficient emphasis. That step is one wherein the general adult population takes up the responsibility that citizens of a democracy must take on; adults must develop a hobby “get a life—get an intellectual life”. In other words, it will be necessary that a significant share of the general population first comprehend these matters sufficiently to recognize the need for the proposed changes to our colleges and universities.

That is not what I am suggesting. I suggest that we withhold judgment until we are better informed. Of course, when we reach the fork in the road we must make a decision, however, most decisions are made without such pressure.

I think that it is very important that adults get an intellectual life. We can no longer afford the luxury of going through our adult life without some intellectual investment in our self and in our community. I think that we should consider that the end of our formal education marks the begining of our adult intellectual adventure.

What makes you think we don’t do this already? What other reason would people have for making a decision, except for information that provokes it.

Better still, why not dispense with all this verbosity and describe a concrete example of when this happened, and why it was a bad thing.