A thread for all things Cephalopod

I think by now, with the threads we have participated in together, you know exactly how I feel about mob justice. I find it equal parts terrifying and horrifying. Deciding not to vote for someone because the allegations against them seem plausible is not mob justice.

Due process is well and fine for deciding whether someone should be convicted of a crime and punished. An individual making up his or her mind about the known facts and how to proceed is a separate one.

You have to understand where I’m coming from. The first man who molested me confessed to it (I was far too young to even comprehend), pled guilty, was convicted, and 27 years later I find out one of my Aunts is dating his nephew and my molester is just around her kids all the time. I had a childhood friend who was raped at knifepoint repeatedly by her teenaged brother. He also went to prison, but being of a religious family, she was pressured immediately to forgive and reconcile with him. I have a relative through marriage who participated in a gang rape, he was also convicted, but due to the wealth and influence of his family, he did not serve prison time. He isn’t allowed to be near a school but he is welcomed with open arms at family events, I see him on a regular basis, he has his own business and a daughter and for all intents and purposes, a normal life. I am expected to kiss him on the cheek whenever we see each other (I don’t.)

I don’t suggest that people’s crimes must always haunt them forever, but that fact that in my direct experience you can be legally convicted of rape or pedophilia and people will pretty much forget about it really dampens the impact of claims that mere accusations will forever ruin a person’s life. ‘‘Forget’’ isn’t exactly the right word, because it always comes with a host of disgusting justifications that attempt to blame the victim. Now, I’ve heard accounts of falsely accused people experiencing significant hardship so I’m sure it happens occasionally. That whole business 30 years ago about the Satanic Ritual Abuse witchhunt comes to mind. But I really doubt it’s anywhere near as systemic an issue as sexual assault.

Now, those are just the actually convicted offenders. There is my adopted father who abused me for six years, and the accusation, if you can even call it that (it’s a long story, but I was under the impression my session with the counselor was confidential, I had no intention at that point of telling anyone in my family anything) impacted his life in approximately zero ways. I was harassed, shamed, interrogated and blamed for everything that happened, he remained married to my mother for another six years, he ended up with another woman who had a daughter the same age as I was when I was abused, she started acting out, and nobody. gave. a damn.

Not a lot I can do, I had and continue to have no evidence of my abuse, because you don’t often have physical evidence for that sort of crime. While I was being abused I wasn’t calculating how this would run in a court of law. I barely comprehended the reality of what was happening and spent most of my childhood ignoring it to the extent that I could. I understand how victims often act on a visceral level because I lived it. I never said a word - not a word - in protest and I didn’t move. I couldn’t wrap my head around it and I still can’t. When I think about it I’m not angry, I’m just confused. All these years later my brain is still struggling to process it. Why don’t we speak up sooner? Why don’t we fight back? Why don’t we tell someone right away? Because most of us don’t. There’s no reason in it. It’s more like a physiological process you can’t control.

Anyhoo, I was skipping school my senior year (I had become a legally emancipated minor), sitting around in my pajamas contemplating hanging myself from the rafters when a young police officer maybe five years older than me knocked on my door, came inside, clearly uncomfortable, and began asking me all these personal questions he was clearly embarrassed to ask me. It was just the two of us. (I’d rank that up there as one of my more humiliating experiences, second only to having to recount all of this to my mother over the telephone because she refused to meet me in person.) I finally just said to the officer, ''Do I have to talk about this?" He said, ‘‘Oh, no, you don’t have to file a police report.’’ I thanked him and sent him away.

Now it may be obvious to you but in my fugue state of depression, disbelief and trauma, I had no idea I was even filing a police report. The thought of dragging that stuff into court was the very last thing on my mind. I just wanted to die. The idea that if I had filed a police report and then later redacted it, I would be called, in the court of public opinion, a liar, someone who obviously made it up, is not something that is ever far from my mind when we talk about false accusations.

17 years later, where are we? Well, I don’t know what the hell he’s been up to, since we no longer have a relationship, but he did attend my grandfather’s funeral and I did not so that I wouldn’t have to see him. (Until my grandfather died, he was actually still a part of my family after the divorce.) As far as I can tell, he hasn’t suffered the slightest for his actions. It’s not him, it’s me, with the therapy bills, and the sexual hangups, and I even had to deal with that shit when I tried to adopt a child, for fuck’s sake, because my name was in the CPS system as a result of having been abused. It was eventually cleared but at a certain point you’re like, ''Fucking really? This shit isn’t over yet?"

At some point I moved from my personal experience to a broader advocacy platform, I studied things like public policy and social welfare at the graduate school level, and I learned about gender dynamics and began to understand that this stuff doesn’t happen in a vacuum. My job with a domestic violence and sexual assault organization is really more coincidence than anything else (I was looking for any grant writing job I could get), but it’s become a vital part of my identity because I’m finally in a position where I can do something about it. I know it makes some people uncomfortable that I talk about it so openly, and that’s good, stay with that discomfort, and then realize that there are thousands of women out there with nearly identical experiences and far worse, and many of us are done watching people look the other way, and equivocate, and propogate myths about us, without pushing back.

octopus, you do not strike me as a person that is particularly naive about the realities of such things, and I am speaking just as much to the hardcore apologists on this board to you as I am in this particular instance. If you want to know what a typical response is from a victim of sexual abuse, you don’t have to guess, there are plenty of women you can ask.

The worst thing about octopus is that he named himself after an otherwise cool and interesting animal. Can we just talk about them instead?

It was hijacking the thread.

I was going to post my own thought in this thread, but I don’t want to sound like I’m just copying what someone else said.

Agreed. They have such beautiful eyes.

It’s disappointing that you keep repeating the same things which don’t conflict with my criticism in any way.

Again, I don’t care, at all, not a single iota, if you “want evidence” or if you’re “naturally skeptical”. Seriously. That’s fine with me. Want evidence all you want. Be skeptical all you want. I literally could not care less what is happening in your own mind.

But you’re attacking women who did nothing more than come forward and tell their stories. That’s what you did. You implied that they might be dishonest, and that they should have come forward sooner. That’s your words, and those words are wrong. It’s not being skeptical, or wanting evidence. It’s attacking women who came forward and told their stories.

Do you see that? Do you see that you just made it harder for the next women to come forward, just a tiny bit, and easier for the next abuser to attack his victims who tell the truth?

Again, you don’t have to say “I believe them”. You don’t have to believe them. You don’t have to believe anything, or do anything. But if you choose to say something, and what you say implicitly attacks these women, then shame and more shame on you. This is not about skepticism or wanting evidence. It’s about making it easier for abusers to abuse, and harder for victims to come forward and tell their stories. And that’s what your words, and other words from folks who attack these women, explicitly or implicitly, do.

Please don’t attack women, even implicitly, just for coming forward and telling their stories. Shame on you if you continue to do this, and double shame on you if you tell others that it’s okay to do this. It’s not okay, and it’s never okay. Please don’t contribute to this ugly part of our society and culture.

Perhaps you could offer examples of ways to voice “wanting evidence” or being skeptical of their stories that would not be attacking the women? Surely if octopus is sincere, he’d have no problem following your examples, right?

Don’t overlook the possibility that anyone who disagrees with you might be both! :smiley:

I have no problem with conservatives. At all. At least, in the traditional, global sense of the word. I do have a problem with those who still cling unconditionally to the coattails of a self-serving and socially destructive Republican Party. People like you. A few snippets of track record that I could be bothered to look up:

The totally degenerate asshole Roy Moore is innocent!
An accusation of an event from 40 years ago? C’mon now. Anyone can accuse anyone of anything.
Anyone who doesn’t agree is part of a lynch mob!
People can say what they wish iiandyiiii. Are you saying I shouldn’t advocate people be tried and convicted in a court of law instead of by a partisan mob?
The incredibly “unfair” media that outs Moore and Trump did everything in their power to protect Bill Clinton!
The media will do everything in their power including hypocritical outrage to help their darling win. Where was this outrage when Clinton was actually grabbing pussy in Arkansas and the White House?
… which assertion Jonathan Chance – who was in the media at the time – set you straight on:
That’s absolute nonsense. I was a part of the feeding frenzy during the whole Monica thing. We pounded Clinton so hard it was one of those never-before never-again sort of things. Clinton got more bad press during that time than Nixon ever did during Watergate for heaven’s sake.
Roy Moore and Ted Kennedy … meh, more or less the same!
Disingenuous comparisons your speciality: a presidential candidate and some random twit – meh, more or less the same!
Bigotry is OK as long as it’s practiced at the border
Responsibility for Russian hacking? Obama, of course!
Bernie Sanders is a pervert – and so is anyone who supports him – because of something he wrote about the psychology of sexual fantasies … as interpreted by a Murdoch tabloid.
Bernie Sanders is “a sickness in America”.

The last two about Sanders are especially telling. He’s actually no more than a mainstream liberal by the standards of first-world democracies, but by your standard, he’s a “sickness” because he advocates universal health care for all citizens and a more equitable wealth distribution similar to that of European and Commonwealth democracies. From where I stand, you’re a typical Republican and dishonesty is a central part of the strategy to further your self-serving objectives. The Roy Moore incident is just a typical example.

He doesn’t need to voice it at all. If he feels the need, I’m not going to attack him or anyone for saying something to the effect of “I’m reserving judgment right now”, which doesn’t attack anyone.

BTW, Moore was asked today if he remembers dating anyone as young as his accusers at the time. His answer: “Not generally, no.”

Seriously. He said “not generally”.

Still skeptical, anyone?

“Hmm. My jury’s out. I’ll refrain from judgment until more facts come into play.”

And honestly, he should be able to say that without being attacked. People can argue back, but the statement in itself is neither offensive nor harmful. At best, it’s prudent. In this particular case it strikes me as rather naive, nonetheless, there’s nothing wrong with it.

When your defense involves criticizing specific alleged victim behavior that is typical of victims, without consideration for basic trauma psychology, then you contribute harm. When your defense involves deciding what behavior women would or wouldn’t find threatening, or how “real victims” might behave, then you contribute harm. When your defense involves saying anything like “it’s not like he’s a rapist, these women are ruining his life over stupid shit” then you are probably beyond hope and of course you contribute harm.

*“real victims” has to go and that applies across the board for any gender or experience. People under stress routinely behave in ways that don’t make sense to an outside observer. Adrenaline does weird things. Any time you evaluate any kind of scenario involving potential trauma it’s important to keep this in mind.

Here.

“Civility?” You do know what forum you’re in, right? :dubious:

Did you notice who posted that? Unless you’re suggesting that Vinyl Turnip is octopus’s sock…

Just wanted to say Spice Weasel that I really appreciate your posts - both the important content that is well articulated, and your tone which is mature, respectful and quite frankly, amazing.

You’re a good person.

I liked how his monocle dropped out when he said that…

You expect civility? In the Pit? You really are a special kind of moron, aren’t you?

Good question is it an (R) or a (D)?

In all seriousness, a large part of why I didn’t vote for Donald Trump was his commentary about pussy grabbing. The other large part was I thought his potential downside outweighed his potential upside.

That’s an excellent post and deserves a better response than I can write at the moment.

That is a beautiful eye. If I were king of the world octopus would be on my do not eat list.

I don’t live in a binary reality. You can question motive and reasoning for a variety of reasons and it’s perfectly legitimate. If she went to trial the questioning would be far more hostile. I’m not even being hostile. I’m legitimately curious as to why she waited 40 years. Perhaps, this is a sign of large male privilege that people talk about.

Political arguing does get partisan. But where am I advocating any form of sanction or punishment. I’m saying if the left wants to be outraged by a particular behavior from a candidate from the right then they should be just as outraged by that same behavior from the left.

What’s this calling me bigoted because of a desire to enforce border law? That’s just straight up wrong.

I’m typing this extra slow. Vinyl Turnip does not equal octopus.

I don’t expect civility in the Pit. I expect myself not to waste too much time on Pit Deplorables.

Thank you. It is exhausting.

I should probably add that I’m in no way implying my response is going to be the same as any other person’s. Based on my overall grounding in trauma psychology and particularly what I’ve learned working at the shelter, I can generalize about how most people respond, but how any individual responds to any given incident will vary dramatically.

There was a recent article where a woman interviewed the man who sexually assaulted her so many years before. She was a teenager at the time, and he started feeling her up while she was laying in bed. As he recalled, once the shock of what he was doing wore off, she responded something to the effect of, ‘‘If you touch me again I’ll break your fucking arm.’’

She then immediately told everyone - and they were supportive. He was pressured into taking some consent training by his friends and spent the rest of his life feeling bad about it.

I cannot fathom any of that, but it’s no less real of an experience. It seems almost superhuman to me to not only recognize that you’re being done wrong in the moment, but to trust your own judgment about it and fight back. In fact, I not only had difficulty saying no to my abuse, I had difficulty saying no to anything at all, even with people I was attracted to, to the point that I broke up with my junior high boyfriend because it was easier for me to break up with him than to verbalize that I didn’t want his hand on my knee. The only man in my life who even seemed to notice my discomfort was my husband. He always knows, he always stops, and he never makes me feel like it’s my fault. There are so many reasons I worship the ground he walks on, but that would be a big one.

I recognize that ‘‘assault survivors behave all sorts of legitimate ways’’ really throws a wrench into the works when you’re trying to decide what you think about an accusation, but I can’t change that, only point it out. It’s a complex issue. I am very much a context-based person and I can’t offer a one-sized fits all solution. I can only appeal for honest reflection before you say something that might hurt someone.

FFS, look who’s talking. You use the term potty mouth unironically. What are you, six?

I could be wrong, but I believe he operative word is “suckers”.