octopus
November 10, 2017, 8:35pm
4371
wolfpup:
Stated as a principle in isolation, this is true. When applied to one single event – an event that would not by itself in any way turn the scale in anyone’s assessment of the reprehensible life of an incorrigible douchebag , it seems completely disingenuous. I think it’s been established in that thread that you derailed with your ridiculous argument that no one with more than half a brain would vote for Moore regardless of the truth of this particular accusation about the 14-year-old, while far-right lunatics, homophobes, Islamophobes, and white supremacists everywhere will vote for him regardless, and either ignore or make excuses for his transgressions. You not only managed to derail the thread and bait two posters into getting warnings, but you’ve established which side you’re clearly on.
That’s actually a bit hypocritical and more than a bit disingenuous. Not once have I said Mrs. Clinton should be sanctioned or punished over allegations. Not once. Even when you sickos in the pit advocate prison rape for various convicts if I respond at all it’s about my disgust at the advocation of extrajudicial violence.
Your victim blaming about “baiting” two posters is sickening. People have free will? People can choose to act like an ass or not inside or outside the Pit. How one acts in either is a truer reflection of character than the desire for evidence of a crime. I think the douchbag is you and your “intellectual” cohorts.
iiandyiiii:
That’s not what the “shame on you” is about – the “shame on you” is about the next bit.
If you want to sit alone on your sofa and question anything at all, including motive or timing or whatever else, I don’t care. I don’t care what’s happening inside your head. But putting stuff out there into the world – whether saying it in public, or typing on a public message board, or calling into a radio show… those are actions that can affect others. It’s certainly not illegal (nor should it be) – but legal things can still be wrong. And your posts questioning of timing or motive are contributing, in an eensy-teensy but real way, to this cultural/societal mistrust we have of victims (especially female victims) of rape, sexual assault, and sexual harassment. You’re making it just a teeny-tiny bit more likely that the next victim who may have happened to hear questions like yours about some other victim will decide not to come forward, because they’re already suffering from having endured a trauma/attack/harassment/etc., and they just can’t open themselves up to more trauma of rhetorical attacks on them, publicly, just because they’re telling their story.
That’s wrong and shameful, and something you shouldn’t do. It doesn’t mean you have to say “I believe the women”. You don’t have to say anything. But if you choose to say something about it, and what you say is questioning the motives or timing or anything else that the accusers say (barring real evidence that they’re lying), then you’re putting shit out into the world on top of more shit that really hurts victims of sexual misconduct and women in general. Please don’t do that any more. When/if you do, it’s likely someone will call you out for it.
iiandyiiii, it’s unfortunate that we live in a world where people will lie for political or other purposes. However, that’s the world we inhabit. I agree with your sentiment and big picture goal but I disagree with your perception on what the best way to solve the problem is. I’m not sure what the best solution is. I’m pretty sure demonizing those who want evidence or are naturally skeptical is not it.
:(. You’re an odd creature.
Spice_Weasel:
This is it exactly. If someone wants to reserve judgment on any particular accusation, particularly if their lack of action will have no impact whatsoever on the alleged victim, I’m fine with that. The problem I see, time and time again, is when this reservation of judgment emphasizes aspects of the victim’s behavior that are completely in line with how real-life victims behave. Saying, ''Why did she wait so long to come forward?" is basically announcing through a bullhorn that you don’t know anything about the psychology of sexual assault victims, or the incredibly harsh consequences they may face for coming forward (in my case, I lost my family and my reputation just for telling a counselor ), but you’re going to go ahead and judge her behavior anyway because reasons.
I completely and fully acknowledge the complexity of this issue despite my obvious bias. I find the power of false accustations, however rare, horrifying beyond measure, in part because I can relate having been falsely accused of lying about my abuse, and the experiences appear to be very similar. I don’t think it requires a court standard of evidence to make up your own mind about someone’s guilt, but I do think there is nothing wrong with taking things on a case-by-case basis. The problem comes in when skeptics embrace completely mythological concepts about what rape or abuse victims are supposed to act like in dealing with their trauma. In the past week, we’ve had posters state that nobody could reasonably feel threatened by a grown man blocking the door and masturbating in front of them, that people speaking out against sexual assault should be afforded ‘‘no big honor’’ since they are ruining the lives of the people whose movies they like to watch, that victims not speaking out right away are a cause for suspicion, and we even had a poster months ago stating that women should never tell anyone besides ‘‘a few trusted confidantes’’ about their rape, ever, unless they’d proved it in a court of law, so as to protect their rapist’s reputation. All of these statements smack of ignorance and a lack of empathy. That is damaging to everyone.
Good post but I take issue with lack of empathy. I can link some videos of mob justice if you want to see the damage allegations can do. This is a complex issue but there is a reason why we, thankfully, evolved to a society that has rule of law AND due process. Do we still have lots of room for improvement? Absolutely. Will we get there by and this is not directed at you dishonest and hysterical attacks? No.