http://www.voanews.com/english/2007-06-18-voa51.cfm
What do you think about the idea of having three states now. Israel, Palestine and Gaza? Do you think this is now workable? It’s pretty amazing the natural stratification that has occurred. Do you think that working for Palestinian statehood in the West Bank is a workable goal?
Just how could Gaza be economically viable as an independent entity not living off of hand-outs?
The West Bank? No problem. Use hot button issues like Jerusalum and Right of Return (which they’d never get) to get more control over water rights, a bigger part of shared tax and tourist industry revenues, and investments in industry and educational infrastructures, and you’ve got a viable state.
Well small states like Hong Kong and Singapore have made a go of it. Perhaps with some Gulf State money, IF and IF they really wanted to do it they could turn Gaza into something workable. The problem of course being that now Gaza has a government that is too busy trying to war with Israel and not wanting to develop itself economically. At least Hamaas is “officially” taken the position against Israel.
Is there a Middle Eastern country that surrounds Israel that does not live off handouts from other governments?
Let Gaza languish and help the West Bank flourish with the name “Palestine”. Show them that a terrorist state doesn’t deserve help, and that the one that plays ball will get help from the west.
I think that’s the way the US wants to play it. I have mentioned before a Palestinian talk show I used to watch. A caller said that his side (whoever that was) woud continue to fight no matter what political solution was suggested “because freedom cannot be given, it must be taken.”
The joke goes like this: The Palestinians are finally getting their two state solution. Unfortunately, the two states are Gaza and the West Bank.
I hadn’t realized that Gaza was much more culturally and religiously conservative than the West Bank. It’s also a lot smaller, both physically and population-wise. I can’t see splitting them up as a good idea, though.
Let Gaza languish? Haven’t the Palestinians been through enough? Why should the populace suffer because Hamas wrangled power from the Palestinian authority?
I hate this. I just hate it.
If elections were held in Iraq, Palestine, or any other Middle Eastern country, Islamic extremists would sweep into power. The West cannot continue to wave the banner of democracy in one hand while enforcing embargoes on countries that democratically elect the “wrong leaders” in the other. The choice is clear. Either the West supports democracy or it doesn’t. Of all of the countries, it seems only Russia has grasp democracy isn’t always sweet:
Indeed, the elections in Palestine were free and fair with oversight by the United Nations. The West continues to meddle in the affairs of the Palestinians which do nothing but to incite incendiary passions for an Islamic state. Like some fitful episode of *the X-Files *, the West continues to hold the superstitious belief that the more it meddles, the better the situation will become. The people in the Middle East have been under Islamic rule for centuries and to think that a secular state will arise from the ashes of Palestine and Lebanon in a decade is pure nonsense.
Where’s Scully when you need her?
Except if the Palestinian people democratically elect a government that declares war against Israel, how exactly is Israel supposed to treat that government? Fight against it and destroy it, that’s what.
OK, now that the democratic pro-war government has been destroyed, then what? Hold new elections? And when the Palestinians elect another pro-war government?
Being democratically elected doesn’t sprinkle a political party with fairy dust that forces us to support them. If the United States elects George Bush president, does that mean that France is obligated to support whatever George Bush wants? Of course not, it has nothing to do with “commitment to democracy”. Hamas is an enemy of Israel, they don’t want to negotiate with Israel they want to destroy Israel. So what good is a negotiation where only one party wants to negotiate?
Yes they have been through enough, and they should get their act together and realize they are at the bottom of the food chain and Israel is near the top with direct authority over them. In otherwords, start acting like adults.
Me too. They elected Hamas, and Hamas has ethnic cleansing in their charter.
We don’t have to support them if they put Islamists in power. All I am suggesting is giving support to the side that wants to play ball, and letting the one that doesn’t languish. If you want a hint of how this all works, see how much non-weapon aid goes to these nations from Muslim nations, and how much comes from the West. We have compassion even for those who want to destroy us. Why? They have no resources, they are in a Hell of their own devising, with only two ways out, destroy Israel or play ball. I would prefer for them to play ball and no matter how mad I might get when I think Israel does something stupid, I fully support Israel’s right to exist.
The west meddled in their affairs, ie, withholds who gets control of its money. You are saying that the west has some moral obligation to give money to thugs who want to murder us. I’m sorry, but the reality of the situation is that these are some of the weakest thugs on the planet, and we don’t owe them anything, being elected was like their Bar Mitzvah, the kid gloves have come off and its time to play heavy carrot/stick. Let the West Bank flourish and see if Gaza can’t be brought along in 5 years. The Arabs are caught in a death spiral, and people keep talking like we have some obligation to accept their cultural autonomy as they try to bring down others with them.
Neither Gaza nor the West Bank will be independent or viable until it controls its own borders with Egypt and Jordan respectively – meaning, the Israelis would not control those borders and would have no military presence on them, and people could travel between the West Bank and Jordan, or between Egypt and Gaza, without securing Israeli permission or passing through any Israeli checkpoint. And ships could enter and leave Gaza ports without having to deal with the Israeli navy.
Would Israel ever allow that?
There are a lot of apt phrases for what you are urging. “Acting like adults” is not one of them.
Adults acknowledge when they are defeated, and that to continue on with their pointless fight will only bring misery and hardship to their people. That is quite an adult thing to acknowledge in my opinion. To carry on a Quixotic crusade at the expense of your own people is highly juvenile.
Viable? Could be even without total independence. Independent without border control? No, you are right. Ever? Ever is a long time. My guess is that if the circumstances existed that a Palestinian state could viably exist functioning cooperatively with its neighbor Israel then integration of economic interests would soon make that Israeli border control unneeded from the Israeli POV. I’d see it going away by a decade or less as the threat decreased. The tricky part is of course getting to those circumstances.
Syria. Jordan, Egypt, Cyprus. They all get aid from other countries, but they don’t “live off handouts”.
In the best case it may be considered honorable, in the worst the guy above who believes that freedom must be taken. I suggest that you are phrasing it in a very negative way that many people would not accept.
I guess I’m one who doesn’t see Fatah continuing to hold the West Bank long term. If Fatah is unable to deliver there, people are going to become rapidly disillusioned, particularly if Hamas is able to achieve something in Gaza. Israel is suddenly throwing money at Abbas’s government, but I doubt they’re doing to do anything about the settlements, or the wall, or the water issue, or any of the other things that make life miserable for the Palestinians in the West Bank. I think that Fatah’s window of opportunity here is pretty darn small.
Not until the weapons stop coming across the border.
No Palestinian state will truly exist until Israel allows it to exist, and Israel will not allow it as long as they’re in military conflict with Palestinians.
It’s a good sign that the first response to Abbas and Fatah taking the West Bank and kicking out Hamas officials was for Israel to immediately announce their intention to resume relations with them, and for the E.U. to announce that it will end the aid embargo to the West Bank.
I said in an earlier thread that the West Bank and Gaza are likely to be two separate political entities for a long, long time, and that I expect the West Bank to succeed, and for Gaza to fail. Gaza seems to be in no position to govern itself through an embargo, and I think you can count me in with the group of people saying “stop acting like children, before you starve your population to death” to Hamas.
Hamas’ goals are a bit more than freedom, though.
True, I was speaking of how Fatah may now act towards Israel and the West.