A victory for fetus rights!!!

Well in so much as it is being proposed that human fetuses be issues death certificates when aborted. At least we are coming to terms that these little guys are human.


And it by itself has no bearing on the right to choose as far as I can tell.

This is bullshit invasion of privacy and a violation of doctor-patient confidentiality. It’s never going to happen. It would get struck down on the first challenge.

A ridiculous act of pandering, serving no medical or legal function.

There is no way this thread can go well. I’m betting it’ll be moved to the Pit before there are twenty posts.

Identifying fetuses as people (even though I personally agree) touches directly on the right to choose, I think.

If some people really believe that zygotes/embryos/fetuses are fully human right from the moment of conception, why are they apparently so unconcerned that one-third to over one-half of all human embryos die in the first few hours to weeks of life, and their deaths are never explained?

If you really care about saving the lives of “people” in the first few weeks after their conception, why would you focus on abortion as the chief problem? Induced abortions account for only a tiny fraction of embryo/fetus deaths. Even if you honestly believe that induced abortion under any circumstances counts as murder, its total impact is still trivial compared to the massive fetal death toll inflicted by non-induced abortion (i.e., implantation failure and miscarriage). It’s as though a society being ravaged by an epidemic that is killing off half its population were to decide that what it really needs to work on right now is tougher laws against homicide.

Some fuzzy-thinking abortion opponents may object that non-induced embryo deaths don’t really count as a problem because they’re “natural” rather than the result of deliberate killing. But that’s just silly. Influenza and smallpox and malaria are “natural” too, but that doesn’t mean we don’t try to stop them from killing large numbers of people. And when unexplained deaths occur, even if there’s no apparent evidence of foul play, we investigate them. Yet anti-abortion activists are sitting idly by while thousands of in utero “people” each day die for reasons we don’t understand, and they don’t lift a finger to do anything about it or even to acknowledge that it’s a catastrophic and tragic event.

What’s the explanation of this strange inconsistency? Simple, IMHO: most people, even most abortion opponents, don’t honestly and consistently believe that fertilized eggs really are persons. They use the rhetoric of fetal personhood to argue against a woman’s right to choose an abortion, but they don’t really feel that the lives of embryos in general are as deserving of acknowledgement and protection as the lives of other people. If they did, they’d be spending less time worrying about abortion and more time trying to do something about the epidemic of spontaneous death that kills orders of magnitude more fertilized eggs than abortion ever has or will.

I’m worried this is a slippery slope… and I am not filling out 50 million death certificates every time I masturbate.

This is a very interesting line of argument. I had never thought of this before. Thanks for sharing it.

In addition, the word “victory” is wildly misplaced in the thread title. This is no more a “victory” than any of a hundred bills introduced that try various means to work toward an abortion ban. Fortunately, most vanish into oblivion. Unfortunately, some don’t.

It only starts slippery. After a while it get crusty and flaky.

:smiley: I think you’re in the clear, Vinny. Unless you have really unheard-of ejaculatory range and aiming powers, you are not fertilizing any ova when you masturbate. And AFAICT it’s the fertilization of the ovum that the pro-life advocates consider as the cutoff for when life begins.

However, people who are (or might be) creating fertilized ova should be concerned about this issue, if they sincerely claim to believe that full human life begins at conception. ISTM that someone who truly believes that the lives of zygotes are just as important as any other human life need to be paying a lot more attention to the major causes of zygote death, instead of concentrating on the relatively trivial problem of deliberate abortion.

You’re welcome. I’m quite serious about this and I appreciate your taking it seriously.

This has got to be one of the stupidest ideas I’ve heard from the anti-abortion crowd yet. Who’s going to take the time to file all of these death certificates, and process them, taking valuable time and resources away from the truly important things?

Actually, we should put Magellan01 to work on the problem! :wink:

Here’s my reasoning: According to the Constitution, people become American citizens by birth or naturalization. Now, obviously none of these fetuses have been born yet; otherwise they would not be fetuses. None of them have applied for either (a) naturalization or (b) green cards or other legally-resident-alien documents.

Therefore all fetuses are undocumented aliens!

Deport the fetuses! We have to build a uterine wall along the border!

Will anyone that has a miscarriage have to do this as well?

Since most women aren’t even aware of it when it happens, I guess every time a women gets her period she should take a sample to the lab for a pre-fetus death certificate.

I read an article in today’s Chicago Tribune that stated that any “death certificate” for an aborted fetus would have either the name or the SSN of the mother on it, which really gets into some serious privacy issues.

Thanks so much for telling us all what pro-lifers “really” think. :rolleyes:

There are different reasons for being against abortion. I have to take it on faith that some proportion of anti-abortion activists are just trying to keep women barefoot & pregnant, because third parties have told me that that’s a major motivation for some. It’s not a motivation I recognize from the pro-lifers I know personally & grew up around.

Of course women spontaneously miscarry over 1/3 of the time. Thus it has always been, & I’m no more going to be distraught by it than by 88-year-olds dying of strokes. Some things are just part of nature. Do you think that old age is some horrible disease that is “killing” great numbers of people? It’s not inconceivable that anti-abortion activists object to induced abortion because so many pregnancies fail on their own, & the ones that succeed are more precious. And I’m quite certain that pro-lifers draw a distinction between a spontaneous abortion (miscarriage) & some mere mortal playing God.

Now, because so many first-trimester pregnancies just don’t take (& often simply can’t, for various reasons) I think trying to equate abortion prior to 12 weeks to murder is a very bad idea–you just don’t know whether the fetus was viable or not. That doesn’t mean that abortions in the next two trimesters are morally neutral acts, or that no fetus should be considered a person.

I suspect that often pro-lifers are more guilty of medical ignorance & sloppy thinking than actual mendacity, but what do I know, I was only raised by one.

Better yet make all women of childbearing age submit to regular tests to determine if they’re pregnant and register all pregnancies with the local police or public health deparment. :rolleyes: How can something that was never alive in the first place merit a death certificate?

Seens bizarre to have a death certificate but no birth certificate.

Perhaps we should replace birth certificate with “conception certificates” issued when sperm first meets egg.

Name of the deceased?

We put serious amounts of research and money into trying to prolong human life as much as possible. We’ve made enormous strides in the past 30 years in this regard, especially in the treatments in stroke, dementia and degenerative diseases.

If we are to accept zygotes and fetuses as having rights and personhood, shouldn’t we put as much research and effort into saving pregnancies which spontaneously abort? Why just accept them as inevitable when we don’t accept Parkinsons or stroke as the inevitable? Our technology might be able to make some of these fetuses viable.