A victory for Queer rights

I feel weird posting three consecutive times but…
I remembered a point I wanted to make.

Andros took the issue of discrimination to a level of abstraction. I answered his questions, however I have a problem with it being taken to that level of abstraction. Discrimination isn’t based on individual whims. It’s based on societies conceptions, and societal based discrimination. If you (at this point I’m no longer refering to you specificly Andros) were harrased by a blond man. You would be unlikely to discriminate based on their hair color, or the eye color. If they are black, it reinforces the stereotype. Bigotry does not exist in a vaccum. It is given support from others around you. As such, that is one problem it is so dangerous. That is why it must not be allowed. If one person is unwilling to hire you because of racism, there are hundreds of others also willing to spit on you. Look at the Wonderbread case, it wasn’t an individual, it was a climate created by many people against the employees. If anyone feels that was ok, I have a real problem with them and their sense of “morality”

Just for the sake of argument, if you owned a business, and you made it known that you didn’t like blacks or homosexuals, and you therefore would not hire blacks and homosexuals as employees:

a) How many job applicants do you think you would get for your business?
b) How successful, financially, do you think your business would be?

Well, hell, that’s sufficiently vague. So anytime somebody is “having a physical and mental effect on” me, I can force them to do things they don’t want to do?

I believe I explained that above. In any case, ExTank stated his libertarian beliefs but also made an attempt to address the subject of the thread: «This ruling is a good thing; hopefully more and better will follow across-the-board for all civil liberties.» Whereas you posted the Libertarian credo with (in my opinion) little relevance to the topic at hand; and then claimed that you were answering a question had been asked, which is what I was disputing. I personally wasn’t trying to “ambush” you.

I will freely admit that I played a part in “hijacking” the thread in that I engaged in a dispute with Libertarian as to whether or not his first post was “on topic.” It was unnecessary and did not add anything constructive. I regret those posts.

I don’t think I participated in the abuses aimed at your character (if I have done so please indicate where and I will tender my apologies.) I did make fun of your (in my opinion hyperbolic) expression about usurping the laws of god. Since I am not a believer I don’t view my mocking comment as being as harsh as you probably do. I personally tend to have an irreverent attitude when people mention religion since I am an atheist. I regret that this has offended you, but I may very well be guilty of similar behaviour in the future. I do try avoid jibing at people’s beliefs, but some ideas are less sacred to me than they would be to other people.

Your point is well taken pldennison, but then how do you explain the segregated businesses in this country forty years ago? How could they turn a profit?

Thats not vague at all… it includes everyone so you can force everyone to do what you want to do and be better than a bigot:)

Also oldscratch you should obey my morality not me obeying your morality.

oldscratch:

And?

I don’t think that necessarily follows. As you say, this is a personal issue, not an institutional one. Someone else doesn’t like me, they don’t get my money, I go elsewhere.

Nope, nope, nope. Just denying them a job in my store. A right to work is not a promise to work, nor is it a right to work anywhere for anyone.

Why is that?

You’re right, it is a very abstracted argument, but I’m not talking about societal norms, or the reasons behind one’s beliefs or prejudices. I’m talking about, fundamentally, a right to control one’s life and property, up to and including the right to be pejudiced.

Phil:

Dingdingdingdingding! Let’s start the bonus round!

That’s precisely it. If I choose to discriminate against OEBLILHMDs, I reap the consequences. I have fewer customers (both OEBLILHMDs and OEBLILHMD sympathizers) as well as a smaller employee base. I would have to balance my prejudices against my business’s welfare.

Arnold:

I don’t think Phil meant to imply that discrimination automatically equals poverty. Simply that those business owners who did not cater to blacks did not have black business or employees. That was a loss they were prepared to take. (And now we’re heading back into that societal thing I was trying to steer clear of.)

Not necessarily. What if the majority of your neighbours had a prejudice against OEBLILHMDs and would welcome a chance to emphasize their disapproval of that lifestyle by patronizing your store? I don’t see how the existence of OEBLILHMD sympathizers is any more likely than the existence of their opponents.

Hey andros, we’re volleying back and forth here! I would argue that if a business owner in the time period I described had decided to de-segregate his store, they would have lost many white customers who were generally better off financially and probably would spend more money; they did not lose, they gained (in the short term) by going along with the custom of segregation.

Then that’s something that would enter into my equation. If I thought I would gain more patronage than I lost, doesn’t it follow that if I weren’t to discriminate I would be hurting my own business?

I know, but I really have to log off and head home. You’re absolutely right about the culture of segregation thing.

I’m not sure that there’s a middle ground. I don’t know that there’s any way for a government to change social mores in a situation like this without preempting a business owner’s rights. (Recontruction, anyone?)

Oh, I’m not bailing out, Andros. I’m just not going to discuss anything with people who are bellicose just for the fun of it. For what it’s worth, I find your application of the Noncoercion Principle to be inspirational in its Ockhamness, whether you are doing it as genuine advocate or devil’s advocate.

Sometimes I think people credit the politicians with changing attitudes about race when in fact it was we who marched in the streets and brought about change, overiding the status quo. It was we, ordinary people, who forced the hands of the politicians to stop government supported segregation. It was we who asserted the rights of people over the “rights” of governments.

But as always happens when politicians smell an expedience, they usurped the cause unto themselves, perverted it to their own ends, and institutionalized whole new race based discriminations. Now, discrimination is more insidious than ever, forced underground, and therefore masked and hidden so that a savvy business politician, with the aid of a competent consultant, can initiate fraud with impunity, firing someone under the guise of reasonable cause when he is in fact a bigot, but a well oiled and well heeled one.

Yet another road to hell, paved and paid for by the taxpayers.

What saddens me about gay activists is that they have learned no lesson from history. Once they have attained the necessary political clout to get all the politicians jumping on their bandwagon, they will have learned too late that the wheels of their cause were not intended to support that kind of weight.

nice little speech, but you know what?? I WANT EQUAL RIGHTS TO JOBS AND HOUSING. [which i do not currently have.]

oh my, looks like my shift key may not work, but the caps lock will.

I would recommend that anyone who believes her rights come from her chief magistrate should consult their source about her grievance. Perhaps that mighty man will pull out his big guns give over to her a part of the business and home that someone else had the foresight and perseverance to buy.

Lib, if you try to claim rights in this country without the benefit of the law to back you up, you ain’t got squat. Rights may not be given by the State, but the State does help ensure that the practice of those rights are not infringed upon.

Some hopeful news this morning in the Times, dixiechiq—there’s a bill going up in front of the New York City council to extend anti-discrimination laws to include the transgendered. About damn time, too, and let’s hope it passes!

So if I don’t rent my house to you, I should be forced (at gunpoint) to do so? You should have the same rights to jobs and housing that everyone else has, that is, no rights. You don’t have a right to force me to pay you money, you don’t have the right to force me to let you live in my house. Those are not rights, no one in America has those rights. Wait, you do have certain housing rights. For example, soldiers cannot be quartered in your residence in peacetime, except in a manner prescribed by law. Your residence and personal papers are protected against unreasonable searches and seizures. And so on.

Absent contractual obligation, an employer can hire and fire you at will. Absent contractual obligation, you can take and quit a job at will. If you have a lease, a landlord cannot evict you unless you void the contract by doing certain things that are set out in the lease. You do have certain rights, but only those granted to you under a freely entered agreement.

One of the most fundamental objectives of unionization is to force employers to sign those contracts, binding themselves to only fire employees under certain conditions. I have no problem with that.

But if you are working at McDonalds and they don’t like your kind there and fire you, find another job, there are millions of crappy jobs like that. If you are working at a good job where you are paid well for what you bring to the organization, perhaps you should negotiate a similar contract, or have your representatives (in, say, a union) do that for you. Then you will be protected. If not, not.

Slythe

Likewise, if a man steals your car, and you cannot get it back from him, then you don’t have squat. But that does not change the fact that you, and not the thief, is the ethically legitimate owner of the car. The legitimate purpose of government is to get your car back to you, not to determine whether you have a “right” to the car.

Lemur

A big, hardy, all embracing welcome to you!

AW: What if the majority of your neighbours had a prejudice against OEBLILHMDs and would welcome a chance to emphasize their disapproval of that lifestyle by patronizing your store?

andros: Then that’s something that would enter into my equation. If I thought I would gain more patronage than I lost, doesn’t it follow that if I weren’t to discriminate I would be hurting my own business?

So you are saying that it could be beneficial for you to go along with society’s prejudices and discriminate against OEBLILHMDs? Then any business that wants to compete with you and take your customers away would follow suit. The OEBLILHMDs would be (to use a vulgar expression) “screwed”. That’s exactly why government needs to intervene, to prevent these kinds of situations.

Libertarian: Sometimes I think people credit the politicians with changing attitudes about race when in fact it was we who marched in the streets and brought about change, overiding the status quo. It was we, ordinary people, who forced the hands of the politicians to stop government supported segregation. It was we who asserted the rights of people over the “rights” of governments.

That doesn’t seem to be an accurate description of the situation. The end of segregation in the south was brought about by a centralized federal government imposing changes upon smaller state governments. I have seen the historical pictures of federal troops escorting black children to grade schools in the midst of jeering, angry crowds. This was not the “will of the people” in Southern states, unless you will agree that the majority imposing their views on the minority is the will of the people (which is personally what I would state.)

Lemur866: So if I don’t rent my house to you, I should be forced (at gunpoint) to do so?

No one is forcing to rent a house if don’t you want to. But since you refer to “freely entered agreements”, I will state that if you decide to rent a house then you must abide by the laws governing such rentals (the house must be constructed in such a fashion that it won’t fall down on the tenants, you can’t turn away all the lesbians in your neighbourhood just because you are prejudiced against lesbians, etc…) If you don’t like those rules, don’t rent property.

Whenever this discussion comes up, I hear these arguments:
Libertarians - A business owner should be able to do business with whom he wishes.
Non-libertarians - That can lead to discrimination and refusal to services for minority or “oppressed” groups.
Libertarians - No business owner in their right mind would do that, it’s not good business practice.

The conclusion to me is “We (non-libertarians) want to prevent people from doing what libertarians say people won’t do anyway.” I personally fail to see why this is such a huge violation of a person’s freedom.

Hmmm. Lib, you and Lemur do make the libertarian case here quite well. However, I see things slightly differently, and do not see in intelligent non-discrimination laws the extreme of coercion that you both have suggested as morally equivalent in your pervious posts.

To start with, in one’s private doings one may choose to do whatsoever one wants, within the confines of the rather broad legal term of “peaceful enjoyment of one’s usufructs.”

When one starts dealing with the public at large, one is, under current law, obliged to conform to certain legal standards.

For example, you are correct that you may choose whom you will hire. But in making that choice, you must take into account that if you blatantly discriminate as regards the “protected classes” (legal fictions constituting groups of people historically discriminated against), you forfeit your right to contracts with agencies of the state and federal governments. Now, in Libertaria, neither the “protected classes” nor the government activities giving rise to those contracts ought to occur. But as a practical mattter, they do in real life.

Similarly, you are under no obligation to hold your second house up for rental to anyone whatsoever. And you are privileged to make a private transaction, e.g., if dear Aunt Matilda has had her family home sold out from under her by the vile Cousin Mortimer, who established title to it by some shady doings involving Great-grandfather’s will, and stands to make inordinately large sums by sale of it to the corporation attempting to build a shopping mall of which that parcel is a key component, then you are quite justified in renting your house to her for a pittance, and rejecting any other person who might inquire about it in favor of Aunt Matilda.

But if you hold that house open for rental to the general public, as by listing it with a realtor or in a newspaper ad, you are obliged to consider all applicants without reference to those categories into which they might fall which would constitute discrimination in the forum state. You have the right not to rent, to rent by private transaction, or to rent to a member of the public. Once you have opted to rent publicly, the rights of the individual members of the public, including those in “protected classes,” come into play, and you may not discriminate against them in manners prohibited by law.

Given this mutualism of rights, does this meet with, if not your ideal libertarian standards, your understanding of what are fair standards in the non-libertarian society which we inhabit?

Finally, to address one point made by Lemur, let me note that the right to collective bargaining is guaranteed by law, not because some theorist felt it ought to be, but because absent that legal protection, an employer could simply dismiss all employees who favored collective bargaining, there being an unequal playing field – he could run at a loss or close down for a period of time much more easily than his erstwhile employees could support themselves in the absence of his employment, particularly in “company towns” which were common in the late 1800s and early 1900s.

Ideally, “peaceful honest people” (Lib’s phrase, which I believe valid in the ideal case) would require a minimum of government intervention. However, the world contains a rather substantial portion of people who are not peaceful or honest, at least as regards some particular aspect of their common life. So the Wagner Law and its sequelae protect the right to unionize. So the various housing laws protect the rights of blacks, mixed marriages, unmarried couples, gay people, and so on, from the discriminatory attitudes which might affect their ability to rent or buy safe and decent housing for themselves and their families.

I welcome reasoned refutation of my points, and humbly ask that you not hypothecate extremes but deal with “real life” situations as I attempted to. I grant that no one should force you at gunpoint to rent to them. And I allow that the unnecessary coercion of the law is morally equivalent. The question becomes, what constitutes ‘unnecessary’? Certainly, you would not object to a police officer employing coercion on someone in the process of robbing you, and probably not on someone embezzling your funds either. Where is the line to be drawn? I think reasonable people may honestly have a range of views as to the proper answer to this.