Do gays need special protection under the law?

[ivylass]

Orlando is getting ready to vote today on whether to add homosexuality to the city’s code of non-discrimination.

Now, as a married straight woman, I am not aware of any gays being discriminated against, but again, my world is probably limited in that area. Unless someone has come out to me, I probably don’t know that they’re gay and frankly, it doesn’t matter to me one way or the other.

I want to ask our gay Dopers…have you noticed any discrimination in jobs or housing because you were gay? Was it because you came out and told them you were gay, or was it something they found out later? Do you think homosexuality needs to be included in the same protection from discrimination as race and gender? Do you think it needs to be added “just in case” or because you have been a victim of discrimination?

[Skip]

I dunno about special protection, but perhaps equal protection needs to be enforced.

[Polycarp]

There’s quite a lot of evidence on discrimination in employment and housing around, Ivy; I’ll let one of the gay posters with quicker reference to it do some links. But I’m wholeheartedly for anti-discrimination laws of this sort, because of all the instances cited.

[ivylass]

See, that’s just it. Maybe because I’m not gay, but I haven’t heard of any incidents (at least in the Orlando area) where gays have been fired or denied apartments simply because they were gay. Am I clueless in this area?

Now, on the flip side, what if someone wants to hire only gays? Would I as a straight woman have the right to sue under the same guidelines?

[DocCathode]

As Skip points out, this would be equal protection. Similiar laws in other cities prohibit discrimination “on the basis of sexual orientation”. While a person being fired due to heterosexuality seems unlikely, the law covers that as well.

Without such a law, it is legal to deny housing because you don’t rent to gays, to reject a jog applicant because you don’t hire queers, and to fire an employee after years of excellent work because you’ve discovered he’s a faggot.

Considering that homosexuals cannot adopt children in Florida, I’d say that a fair amount of discrimination is going on.

[SuaSponte]

*Originally posted by ivylass *
**Now, on the flip side, what if someone wants to hire only gays? Would I as a straight woman have the right to sue under the same guidelines? **

This is the issue in a nutshell, ivylass. You already have that right - in almost all instances, current law prohibits discrimination in employment on the basis of sex.
If you were to walk into a job interview and the interviewer were to say, “I’m sure you’re qualified, dear, but we don’t like chicks working here,” you could walk out the door and file suit that day (so, too, could a male sue if the employer said they don’t hire guys). Gays want the same protection.

As a woman, do you think the current law I just stated to you provides you with “special” protection, or equal protection under the law?

Sua

[ivylass]

I think that would be equal protection under the law, Sua, but I’m not sure I would want to work for such a He-Man Woman Hater in that case.

But what if the employer only hires gays? Can I sue if he doesn’t hire me because I’m straight? And doesn’t an employer have a right to decide who works for him? Not hiring someone on the basis of their skin color is repugnant, I grant you, but does it still happen on such a wide scale that we need laws to protect us from unfair hiring practices? I would like to think we’ve progressed a bit from the Jim Crow days, and no one would even dream of not hiring a highly qualified candidate because they’re black/female/gay/atheist whatever.

I admit, maybe I live in a little bubble, protected from the Mean World Out There. I would be interested in hearing from our gay Dopers on stories of discrimination in the workplace. And how they resolved such matters.

[minty_green]

*Originally posted by ivylass *
But what if the employer only hires gays? Can I sue if he doesn’t hire me because I’m straight?

If discrimination based on sexual orientation were to be prohibited, the answer would obviously be yes. Right now, you can’t.

And doesn’t an employer have a right to decide who works for him?

Yes, but only so long as the decision is not based on race, sex, religion, etc.

Not hiring someone on the basis of their skin color is repugnant, I grant you, but does it still happen on such a wide scale that we need laws to protect us from unfair hiring practices?

That’s not quite the proper question. The real question is how widespread it would be if those laws did not exist. In any event, there is more than enough discrimination out there to justify those laws. Believe me, there are plenty of successful race discrimination lawsuits, and it defies belief to surmise that they’re all baseless.

[SuaSponte]

*Originally posted by ivylass *
But what if the employer only hires gays? Can I sue if he doesn’t hire me because I’m straight?

Well currently, you can’t (though there are ways around it), because discrimination based on sexual orientation is not prohibited.

And doesn’t an employer have a right to decide who works for him?

It’s arguable. The determination of the law is that, because an employer (a) affects interstate commerce, which Congress has the authority to regulate, and (b) takes advantage of government-provided services, from roads to police protection, government has the right to some regulation of hiring.

Not hiring someone on the basis of their skin color is repugnant, I grant you, but does it still happen on such a wide scale that we need laws to protect us from unfair hiring practices?

This argument isn’t a good one. If the murder rate in the U.S. dramatically plummeted to the point that there was only one murder a year (or a decade), would that mean we no longer need laws prohibiting murder?

I would like to think we’ve progressed a bit from the Jim Crow days, and no one would even dream of not hiring a highly qualified candidate because they’re black/female/gay/atheist whatever.

We’ve progressed a bit, but qualified candidates are constantly turned away because of race, gender, etc.

Sua

[ivylass]

*Originally posted by SuaSponte *
**This argument isn’t a good one. If the murder rate in the U.S. dramatically plummeted to the point that there was only one murder a year (or a decade), would that mean we no longer need laws prohibiting murder? **

Ah, good point, Sua.

We’ve progressed a bit, but qualified candidates are constantly turned away because of race, gender, etc

Do you have a cite? I’m not asking you to back up your point, but it’s been so long since I’ve seen any news stories on this issue, I would be interested to see some recent discrimination suits, no matter what the basis.

[David_Simmons]

Diear *ivylass, I think you are being serious and not facitious with this comment but it moved be to remember Mark Twains’ comment about a similar statement: “Cold sarcasm like that revolts me.”

The days of legal “Jim Crow” are over, but that nasty beast is still alive and well all over. If you doubt this just go to my old home town of Cherokee, IA, drop into the HY VEE Coffee Shop, sit back and listem. And I don’t think Cherokee is a lot different from many areas in Manhattan, Los Angeles or even San Francisco.

[ivylass]

David I am being completely serious. There is a thread right now in IMHO about the rudest thing someone ever said, and one poster was asked to move because the man didn’t want to sit next to a white person.

That type of thing disgusts me. I guess being the type of person I am (college educated, working in a professional position) I don’t run into a lot of discrimination. I would like to think what goes on in your hometown coffee shop is the aberration, not the norm.

[asterion]

I’m all for equal protection under the law. I try–I admit, I do fail at times–to treat everyone I meet equally until I get to know them better. There should be no discrimination on any basis of race, religion, sexuality, etc. unless the job specifically requires it. The problem I have is that we seem to go from equal protection to affirmative action and quota systems, which cause the same problems they’re supposed to fix, only in reverse.

[ivylass]

asterion, I think you raise a good point. I could start a thread on Title IX, but I’m not up to speed on all the points yet.

I guess until we see proof of discrimination against gays in the workplace and housing in Central Florida, my stance would be “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.” Now, if such proof is offered, then it would seem such a law is in order. But I don’t know that any such proof has been submitted.

[MrVisible]

Okay, ivylass, I’m in the process of compiling some statistics and personal anecdotes about discrimination. But before I put them into a post, I have a question.

How much proof would you need that discrimination is taking place before you would take steps to insure that all people are being treated equally under the law?

Would one person having been denied a job or a house because of their sexual orientation be enough? Two? A hundred? A thousand? How many people would have to be jobless or homeless because of bigoted discrimination before you’d consider it reasonable to enact laws that put them on an equal footing with everyone else?

[ivylass]

*Originally posted by MrVisible *
**Would one person having been denied a job or a house because of their sexual orientation be enough? Two? A hundred? A thousand? How many people would have to be jobless or homeless because of bigoted discrimination before you’d consider it reasonable to enact laws that put them on an equal footing with everyone else? **

That’s a good question, MrVisible. It think it would have to depend on the circumstances, whether it was a pattern of conduct or a misunderstanding, or whether other factors were in play. (Yes, the man who was fired was gay, but he also happened to call in sick every single Friday, that type of thing.)

I would be interested in your stats. Like I said, maybe in my world there isn’t a lot of discrimination and therefore I believe it’s not widespread. What have you encountered?

[MrVisible]

First of all, please keep in mind that in areas where there are no non-discrimination laws currently enacted, statistics are impossible to obtain. Reason being, why report discrimination when discrimination is perfectly legal?

So, here are the promised statistics:

A survey of 343 self-identified gay men and lesbians in Fayette County (Kentucky) found:

   22.4% of the sample had received less than comparable service
           in a restaurant,health club, etc.
    7.6% had been denied a job
    7.1% had been fired
    7.0% had been denied housing
    6.5% had been denied membership in a club or social group
    6.2% had been denied a promotion
    4.4% had been denied insurance
    4.4% had been denied financial assistance
    4.1% had been neglected or received delayed service by police or
           emergency personnel
    3.5% had faced discrimination in the military
    3.2% had been denied educational opportunities
    1.8% had been denied custody or visitation rights with their children
    2.3% had been denied health care

Source: Lexington Fairness Campaign (http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/1786/why.htm)

A survey of 191 employers revealed that 18% would fire, 27% would refuse to hire and 26% would refuse to promote a person they perceived to be lesbian, gay or bisexual.
–Brause, “Closed Doors: Sexual Orientation Bias in the Anchorage
Housing and Employment Markets,” in “Identity Reports: Sexual
Orientation Bias in Alaska,” Identity Incorporated, Anchorage,
Alaska, 1989.

A review of 21 surveys found that between 16% and 46% of survey respondents reported having experienced some form of discrimination in employment (in hiring, promotion, firing, or harassment)
–Badgett, Donelly, and Kibbe, “Pervasive Patterns of Discrimination
Against Lesbians and Gay Men: Evidence from Surveys Across the United
States,” National Gay and Lesbian Task Force Policy Institute, 1992.

I found the Badgett study interesting, so I went and found some more of her work, which is tangentially germaine to this discussion:

This is from the ESPA STATE OF THE STATE REPORT ON LESBIAN AND GAY NEW YORKERS AND THEIR FAMILIES

The preponderance of national data reveals that both gay men and lesbians earn less than their heterosexual counterparts.[sup]7/8[/sup]

A common myth is that lesbians and gay men have more money than their heterosexual counterparts. On the contrary, while 65% of heterosexual men in a recent national survey earned less than $25,000 per year, 81% of gay men earned less than $25,000.9 And, according to several studies, “the preponderance of the national data reveals that both gay men and lesbians earn less than their heterosexual counterparts.”[sup]7/8[/sup] While some data indicate that gay men and lesbians are more likely to have attended college or graduate school, their higher degree of education did not correlate with the same increases in income experienced by heterosexuals. The myth of wealthy lesbians and gay men appears to be based on biased marketing studies, and sometimes on purposeful misrepresentation by political extremists who seek to equate homosexuality with privilege.

The footnotes above refer to:
7) Badgett, M.V. Lee and King, Mary C., Lesbian and Gay Occupational Strategies. HomoEconomics: Capitalism, Community and Lesbian and Gay Life (1997)
8) Badgett, M.V. Lee, et al., Pervasive Patterns of Discrimination Against Lesbians and Gay Men: Evidence from Surveys Across the United States, Civil Rights Project of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force. Unpublished (1992).

(M.V. Lee Badgett, Ph. D. is with the Department of Economics at the University of Massachusetts, Amherst. If you want to see a thorough exploration of this subject matter, you can download her book here. Beware: it’s a 772k PDF download.)

So, how’m I doing? What more would you like?

[Mars_Horizon]

Hi ivylass - I’m also Orlandoish (Winter Park), married, and work at a very “pro diversity” company that extends benefits and the like to same sex couples. All that to say that many people who would enjoy those benefits work here. And many of those same folks are good friends of mine. I can say that based on their anecdotal evidence, there is discrimination against gays here in Central Florida. Witness the religious right’s campaign against the law, which is a toothless ordinance anyway - the maximum fine is $500 for a given violation :rolleyes:

So if there is no need for the law, and the maximum penalty is minimal, then, um…why all the hoopla over approving it?

[David_Simmons]

*Originally posted by ivylass *
**That’s a good question, MrVisible. It think it would have to depend on the circumstances, whether it was a pattern of conduct or a misunderstanding, or whether other factors were in play. (Yes, the man who was fired was gay, but he also happened to call in sick every single Friday, that type of thing.)
**

Ah yes, but if the organization is reasonably large there are no doubt other, non-gays who regularly leave early on Friday, call in sick on Mondays and take long lunches. Are they fired or are they told to go to Employee Assistance and given an opportunity to correct their behavior?

The general rule in discrimination cases, as I understand it, is that if you treat all employees alike, for example give no slack whatever on irregular work habits to anyone (one strike is out), then there is no discrimination.

[ivylass]

MrVisible that is pretty scary. I do have one question…how did employers know the employees were gay? I certainly didn’t have to declare my sexual orientation when I was hired…whose business is it, anyway? Or it is “perception?” They discriminate because they think the employee is gay, whether or not it’s true?

Mars, what have your friends experienced? Is it due to possible (mis)perception by the discriminator? And Mike Thomas’ column is very interesting. Why pass an anti-discrimination law with no real impact? Is it a bone to throw to both sides, “Look we did something to protect you” and “You won’t be hit with any huge fines, so business as usual.” Why go through the motions?

I’m still interested in first hand accounts of discrimination from our gay Dopers. It looks like my perception of “We’ll deal with people according to their abilities, not who they sleep with” is wrong. As a straight person I have no idea what it’s like to be gay. I appreciate you guys taking the time to discuss this issue with me.