Well, if they’re fired as well, then there is no discrimination.
Likewise, if the gay person was given an opportunity to correct their behavior and they didn’t, again, no discrimination.
ivylass, here is a list of questions that I would have to dodge, or lie in response to, in order to keep my sexual orientation a secret:
So, what did you do last night?
How was your Thanksgiving?
Got any plans for Christmas?
Who was that you were with at the theatre the other night?
…or, pretty much any aspect of my personal life that generally comes up around the office. You see, I spent last night at hanging out with my boyfriend. Thanksgiving was great; it was just me, my boyfriend and a couple of friends. Christmas, I might be going to see my boyfriend’s family. And my boyfriend and I went to go see the Fantasticks the other night.
I don’t go around yelling “I’m gay!” in a squealy falsetto; but I do keep a picture of my boyfriend (taken in front of the NYNY casino in Vegas) on my desk. I shouldn’t have to keep a secret identity to keep my job.
So, how did employers know that employees were gay? Maybe one had a picture of her girlfriend on her desk. Maybe somebody told a co-worker about his weekend at Six Flags with his boyfriend. Maybe they wore a t-shirt with a rainbow triangle on it.
None of the above should be firing offenses. But as it stands, in many places, they are. And that’s just not right.
I gotta call you on this little survey. In your cited survey %22 of gay people thought that they had substandard service in restaurants, health clubs, etc. Exactly how did the people in the restaurant or club know these people were gay? Were those people who responded to the survey wearing big hats that had “I Am Gay!” in Neon lights on their heads? I don’t think so.
Also, do you think the cops and EMT’s keep a list of Gay people and respond to emergencies involving Gays slower than they would to any other emergency? I don’t think so.
This survey is meaningless. It is nothing more than what some people believe. There are no facts.
Next, MrVisible,
Ducking questions like “what did you do last night?” is pretty simple. Guess what, us straight people lie about it as well. If my boss asked that question do you think that I could be truthfull and say “Well, I did my girlfriend and it was great”?
You don’t have to lie about your life, just don’t go into details. Say your are hanging out with your family. Or you are just getting together with some friends. Simple questions only require simple answers.
A note, I think that Gay couples deserve the same rights as straight couples.
Slee
“I went to the movies with my boyfriend” is a simple answer.
Lilairen,
Yes, that is a simple answer. MrVisible believes that he has to keep his sexual preferences private. MrVisible thinks that if he came out he would lose his job. I hope that we live in a world where who you sleep with wouldn’t matter when it came to your job. Regretablly we are not there yet.
My point is that most people fudge. You DO NOT need to bring your sexuality into the discussion. I wouldn’t tell my Boss that I had sex with my girlfriend so why would MrVisible think that he has to bring his boyfriend into it? Keep private things private.
Slee
And do you realistically think that the only context in which straight people mention their SO;s is sex? Puh-leeze.
BUT, sleestak, do you mention that your girlfriend and you went out to eat? Same difference.
:rolleyes:
If I can talk about my husband or my boyfriend without people batting an eye, I think MrVisible or gobear or whoever else should be able to talk about their boyfriends without people batting an eye. Should be able to have photos of their families on their desks. Should be able to say that they went out to a movie last night with their respective boyfriends without people getting wound up about it.
Should not be constrained from talking about their lives because someone foolishly thinks that a guy talking about going to that great new restaurant down on Main Street with his boyfriend is somehow sexual, even though a chick mentioning that she went to the same restaurant with her boyfriend is business as usual.
If the people in same-sex relationships aren’t allowed to talk about their lives, fine. No photos of the spouse and kids on the desks. No “My wife wants me to pick up some milk on the way home.” No sharing that that new ring is an engagement ring. And forget that great new restaurant on Main Street. That’s bringing your sexuality into the discussion.
Slee, There is no way in hell to circumnavigate thes kinds of questions forever, in fact, being vague, in and of itself, usually causes people to speculate.
I once had a very close friend who came out to me a few months into our friendship. He had no effeminate mannerisms or stereotypical traits, so it wasn’t obvious to anyone who didn’t already know. This guy had been through a series of about ten different jobs in three years. The reason was that no matter wher he worked, people would eventually find out he was gay nad the harrassment would start. (It was a very conservative community). He never said a word about his sexuality at work. When people asked him questions about his personal life, he gave deliberately vague non-answers, or tried to change the subject. People invariably pressed him for details which he would decline to give. This was all they ever needed to label him a “faggot.”
The harrassment came from bosses as well as coworkers. If he walked into a room people would make remarks like “don’t bend over, here comes _____.” I heard a lot of this myself because I worked with him at one of these jobs. When I tried to stand up for him, it was decided that I must be a faggot as well, or why else would I hang out with one. I also started hearing snickering and stupid-ass remarks on the job. It was either kick somebody’s ass or just quit, so I quit. My friend actually stayed a few more months until he couldn’t take it anymore and tried to kill himself. It was not his first attempt.
Eventually he moved on to another job and went through the cycle all over again. Let me emphasize, this was a person who went to great pains to keep his sexuality a secret at work. I never once saw him make a pass at a coworker or even look at one in a sexual way (although it goes without saying that straight guys constantly leer at female coworker, make passes at them, and make crude comments about them when they’re not listening).
It didn’t matter. Someone eventually always found out. Supervisors who had been pleased with his job performance suddenly found reasons to give him unsatisfactory evaluations or find pretenses to fire him.
One amusing irony was that he told me, on at least one occasion, an especially homophobic supervisor, one who constantly complained about “faggots and dykes” during the shift, invited him into his office, locked the door, and told him he could keep his job in exchange for a blow job. My friend chose to walk out instead.
I know a lot of this stuff was illegal and so did he. I often urged him to bring formal complaints or lawsuits, but he did not want to endure a public outing in a courtroom.
About four years ago he finally succeeded in killing himself.
He had other problems as well. He suffered from clinical depression. He had been sexually abused as a child. He drank too much. He smoked too much. He was also one of the funniest, most caustic people I ever knew. He was extremely generous. He loved to buy people gifts, and went to a lot of trouble to get just the right thing. His one stereotypical trait was a love for interior decorating. He loved to look at houses, read decorating magazines and go antiquing. He was sometimes embarrassed that he was such a cliche in this regard.
He was a good person and a good friend. He had a right to earn a living without being harrassed. I believe that this pattern of discrimination at work aggravated his depression and contributed to his suicide. I know this is anecdotal. It is not a statistic, but it is one person I knew personally who suffered repeated discrimination at work, despite his attempts to keep his private life private.
Yeah, ya gotta call me. Of course, in calling me, you’ve just invalidated surveying as a means of gathering data; all surveys are just ‘what some people believe.’ ivylass wanted some information on how many people are discriminated against in the workplace; if you invalidate the input of the people in the workplace, whose word are you going to take for it?
As to your contention that I should hide my sexuality, and be in the closet in the workplace, well, why? Just answer that one. Why should I?
I’d also like to point out that when I fill out my life insurance form, the beneficiary is my boyfriend. My boyfriend is my emergency contact. We have the same phone number. I have direct deposit into a joint account; the check I have to provide for direct deposit has both our names on it, with the same address and phone number.
Also… if you’re working with a group of people every day, and never share anything about your life, you’re quickly seen as being aloof, secretive, suspicious, and ‘not a team player.’ So, that’s a Career Limiting Move as well. Rock and a hard place, bub.
Diogenes, I’m so sorry for your loss. I wish yours was the only story like that I knew with that tragic an ending.
I need to clear things up. My best friend is a woman named C. (I’ll just call her C because I don’t want to bring her into this) C is a lesbian. I have known that for years. She is, and has been, my best friend since I was 15. I don’t care who people sleep with. It just doesn’t matter to me. I’d die for C.
At the same time I see people posting ‘surveys’ like MrVisible and I just have to call it BS. He posted a ‘survey’ that stated %22 of gay people felt that they were given substandard service in restaurants and clubs. When I ask a simple question, like ‘how in the hell did the waiter know you are gay?’ there is no response.
I don’t care who you sleep with. At the same flaunting your sexuality is probably not a good thing.
A comment about those who asked if I kissed my GF in public. The answer is no. I do not like public displays. Do it in your house.
Slee
Let’s see… because I’m there with my boyfriend? Because the waiter caught us holding hands? Because we referred to ‘our’ dogs, or house, within earshot of the waitstaff? Because I just can’t help smiling when I look at him?
I didn’t answer because I thought you were being deliberately obtuse.
So, what constitutes flaunting my sexuality?
And, why? Why is flaunting my sexuality not a good thing?
As long as you’re making up arbitrary rules for gay people, I may as well know why you feel we need to follow these rules.
Also, you ignored my paragraph about how insurance and HR issues complicate maintaining a ‘secret gay identity’ at work. Any more advice on how to nail my closet door shut?
Oh, and the ‘some of my best friends are gay’ thing kinda wears thin after a while. You might want to show your lesbian friend this thread, and see what she has to say about it.
And like I said Slee it is virtually impossible to keep it a secret forever. people always find out anyway. What then?
I seem to remember a thread where someone asked for anecdotes of specific incidences of discrimination and violence against gays and lesbians, and several dozen dopers responded with stories that left most of us slackjawed and/or in tears. ivylass, no offense, but you might be on to something with your suspicion that you “live in a bubble” .
The gaybashing thread, as requested.
Be warned; it’s not an easy read.
I just read about half the thread and had to quit. 
Here in Chicagoland, a few years back, Reb Lobster fired an award winning manager for the sole reason that he was gay. IIRC the fact that he was gay came out due to some charity work on his part on his own time. We have laws here against firing people because of sexual orientation. Red Lobster’s parent company not only admitted to firing him because he was gay, but tried to get our laws thrown out as un constitutional. I am still boycotting Red Lobster and Olive Garden as a result.
We do need non-discrimination laws. I am glad Cook county has them.
Wow. Well, you’ll never see me in Red Lobster again.
Do you have any proof of discrimination in the workplace or housing based on national origin, religion, or marital status? Nodoby has to tell other people what country they’re from, what their religion is, or if they’re married, widowed, divorced, or single, yet those are all already included. Should the anti-discrimination laws be amended to omit such categories?
—Red Lobster’s parent company not only admitted to firing him because he was gay, but tried to get our laws thrown out as un constitutional. I am still boycotting Red Lobster and Olive Garden as a result.—
Strange, for someone ostensibly concerned with equality, that you would exercise your right to choose the establishments you wish to deal with, but at the same time demand that establishments should have no such rights when choosing who they deal with. That I find your exercise lauable and theirs detestable hardly helps me resolve the contradiction in terms of equality or rights.