A Witnessing by 'orbust

Great Debates
1

To fulfill a promise, I will now “witness” without really knowing what it means “If you must witness, do it here [on GD]”.

I have a strong belief that there is a “Great Spirit” which is over all. Unlike many, I don’t believe that such a “Deity” is merely physical; but, rather, includes three major, unequal components**:** The physical (“body”); the mental (“mind”); and the spiritual (“soul”). I believe that the “mind” is much more important, and lives much longer, than the “body”. I believe that the “soul” is much more important, and lives much longer, than the “mind”.

Although the (Super)String Theorists refer to themselves as “physicists”, I believe that their mathematics will eventually provide the rules and laws of this many-dimensional physical x mental x spiritual space. It is this higher dimensional space (plus time) in which I believe that we all live.

I was raised a Roman Catholic and, though I no longer practice that (formal) religion, I believe in Jesus and in Jesus’ teachings. I do not necessarily believe that Jesus was the Jewish “Christ”; and find whether or not Jesus was the “Christ” to be an irrelevant datum in the general scheme of Life. What I do find important is Jesus’ teachings, which I try to follow (–althought most assuredly it is nearly always more tempting to follow The Primrose Path ).

I strongly also believe in many of the (philosophical) precepts of the Hindu, Shinto, Bhuddist, and Taoist religions. My favorite life-saying of all philosophies comes from Taoist writings:

I similarly find my self frequently quoting the Holy Koran, as well as Zoroasterian teachings. Jesus was, of course, a Jew. And the religions of ancient “Middle America”, (Greater Mexico), are among the most advanced and far-seeing among humanity. (I was, after all, raised a “Catholic”, and seem to have taken the formal, dictionary definition of that word very seriously.)

Since there needs, if possible, to be some arguable points in a GD thread, I also believe that very few persons who self-style themselves as “Christians” (which includes meaning "followers of Jesus and of Jesus’ teachings) do, in truth, follow very many, if any, of Jesus’ teachings.

Further, and finally, (without even a HINT of intending to prostelitize), I find it to be a (logical, rational) near-impossibility to believe that Jesus was crucified: It simply does not fit everything which is known about Military Government (of any era) or about the Romans’ religious beliefs**.** (I do not, however, dispute the New Testament’s teachings on this matter; nor the Apostles beliefs.)

2

Wow, that was a (really) “good” post. (“I think.”) I x may x be x “wrong,” though.

Esprix

3

Was it the Mahatma that said pp “I would that Christians were more like their Christ.” My wording may not be quite right on that. Corrections anyone?

PS: Mohandas and the Rev. King are probably the only pacifists that I truly admire.

My own pessemistic theosophy-du-jour below.

4

Allow me to echo Esprix’s endorsement of the OP. Just for the sake of eliminating ignorance, what are the reasons for believing that the Roman Empire would not have crucified a given condemned man?

5

I’m inclined to agree. Gandhi was a perceptive fellow.

**

I find this a curious statement. Although I’m not very religious, I don’t really doubt the historical Jesus, i.e., some chap that went around Palestine irritating the Romans, nor do I doubt that he was actually executed by crucifixion. The Roman practice of crucifixion is a well-documented one, a means of execution that they reserved for slaves, rebels, and foreigners. (A noteworthy instance of rebel slaves being crucified came after Spartacus’s rebellion, when about 6000 slaves were crucified, the crosses lining the sides of the Appian way.

I commend to your reading the information provided at this website, which details a brief history of crucifixion. It’s worth pointing out that the practice of cruxifixion was not formally abandoned by the Romans until Constantine outlawed it in 337 CE.

So, given that the Romans weren’t shy about using crucifixion, what evidence do you have that they would have not crucified Jesus?

6

"I have a strong belief that there is a “Great Spirit” which is over all."
Fair enough. I have a strong belief that there isn’t. I don’t think it is a point open to much debate, however - I’m just more comfortable without a “Great Spirit”.

I believe that the “mind” is much more important, and lives much longer, than the “body”. I believe that the “soul” is much more important, and lives much longer, than the “mind”.
Once my mind is dead, my “soul”, whatever that is, can go hang itself. What’s the point of having some nebulous part of yourself that has no self-awareness or conciousness or ability to think persisting after your mind has died? The soul seems to be about as significant as a tattoo.
Also, since my mind seems to be easily affected by such gross physical things as alcohol, lack of sleep or food and blows to the head, I’m fairly sure that my mind will die when my body dies.

Although the (Super)String Theorists refer to themselves as “physicists”, I believe that their mathematics will eventually provide the rules and laws of this many-dimensional physical x mental x spiritual space. It is this higher dimensional space (plus time) in which I believe that we all live.
Whoosh! I can’t argue with you, I don’t know what you’re talking about.

What I do find important is Jesus’ teachings, which I try to follow
Good. There was some cool stuff in the Sermon on the Mount, anyway.
(–althought most assuredly it is nearly always more tempting to follow The Primrose Path ).
Over my head again. Is that something like being seduced by the Dark Side?

I strongly also believe in many of the (philosophical) precepts of the Hindu, Shinto, Bhuddist, and Taoist religions.
I didn’t realise it was a Pick ‘n’ Mix. But I don’t think Odin’s going to let you into Valhalla…

Some questions:

If there is a “Great Spirit”, does It have a plan for the Universe? Do we have a role in the plan? Are there any special ways it wants us to behave? How do we know what they are? What happens if we get them wrong?

What IS a soul? What function does it serve? What value does it have in the absence of a mind? (My own concept of the mind includes my self-awareness, my conciousness and my memory, which is why I can’t see what the “soul” DOES. You may be working to a different definition however.)

7

Hey, me too!

Do you feel there is some essential symmetry to this space? Are existents translatable (that is, may we exchange spiit for mental, mental for physical, etc) or is each component locked in its own space? As well, how do you suppose these spaces interact?

Not everyone believes this.

Do you feel it is even possible to do so and people simply don’t?

Indeed, many doubt that he died on the cross at all; some wonder why he was subject to Roman punishment (crucifixion where death occurs usually over a matter of days from suffocation/dehydration) rather than the Jewish punishment (of the time) of stoning (which, of course, is rather difficult to fake).

Er, oh.

8

Jesus’s teachings boil down to “be nice.” They are not especially profound and certainly no different from the moral admonitions of other teachers. The whole purspose of the Incarnation was to die on the cross to atone for the sins of humanity and offer eternal life through the Resurrection.

So we may mark you down in favor of human sacrifice, then?

So what was He, Presbyterian?

9

And Sea Sorbust still hasn’t answered the question of what evidence he has that the Romans not using crucifixion. Do you have an answer for this question,Sea, or were you just making your claim to sound impressive? I’m interested in hearing what you have to say about the above quoted claim.

I’ve noticed that you haven’t returned to this thread at all to address any of the responses, which is leading me to believe that the OP was of the drive-by variety. Spout off some stuff and back none of it up.

Getting to be kind of a habit for certain posters around here. :rolleyes:

10

Sea Sorbust wrote:

Why? Because these theories call for the existence of “extra dimensions”?

It sounds like you believe that “the mind” and “the soul” are dimensions within our universe – the same way that width, length, depth, and time are dimensions. When Superstring Theory talks about a particle existing as an infinitely long string (or loop) in an “extra dimension,” they are not throwing these terms together haphazardly. They use this multidimensional model as a means of mathematically explaining and predicting the behavior of subatomic particles.

Tell me – in your model of “the mind” as an entire dimension (or multiple dimensions?) unto itself, what predictions does this make as to the behavior of “the mind”? And how did you derive these predictions mathematically from your model? And based on what observations did you arrive at the hypothesis that something called “the soul” exists, much less describes one or more dimensions of its own?

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I don’t know. What seems clear is that the mind has a much smaller effect in our lives than does our body. (Bodily needs usually win over “mind” needs/wants.) What seems equally clear is that the “soul” (conscience: striving for “goodness”) has an even smaller effect over the body than does the mind; and a smaller effect over our actions than the mind’s wants/needs. On the other hand, it seems that the “ultimate goal” would be to achieve what the spirit/soul sees as what we should be doing, what actions we should take. (This stuff is the subject of VOLUMES; please don’t attack me for trying to put it into a small paragraph.)

Astounding! I’ve never had even a hint of anything else—barring those who simply deny Jesus’ historical existence. “You learn something every day.”

Yes, I do think that it is possible; just very difficult. Contrary to what gobear said, there is much more to Jesus’ teachings than “be nice”----although that precept is a pretty enveloping one.

I suspect that Jesus’ was not subject to Jewish law and punishment simply because they (the Jewish lawyers and clergy) were afraid, not of Jesus but of a higher power which might lay them all very, very low in an instant of time. I suspect that they were prudent enough to send the problem, Jesus, to the Romans and let them run the risks.

As to why I don’t think the Romans did ANYTHING to Jesus (beyond having him sup with the Roman big-cheeses and giving him [secret] passage to anywhere): The Romans were very good at Military Government/Occupation. They knew all about Jesus. Recall that none other than a Centurian, himself, sent to Jesus asking a favor. (Centurians were VIPs in the Roman Army.) Moreover, the Romans were very tolerant of religions and, as are most-all soldiers, were extremely careful with “gods”. It is beyond my comprehension how, short of a direct order from the Emperor, the Roman Military Goverment could have done anything but honor Jesus as a god or a representatives of one of the gods (maybe even Jove) once Jesus got into their hands.

All this is logic and reason, based on the realities of Military Government and the Romans’ view of religions and gods.

Included in all of this is a well (but easily) crafted “cover plan” to satisfy the Judaic (religious) rulers. In particular, a concocted crucifiction of some poor slob destined to die anyway and who, given a thorough beating and lots of scalp-blood (the "crown of thorns), physically resembled Jesus. This is why I don’t doubt that the Apostles actually believed that Jesus was crucified, nor do I doubt any of the other post-crucifiction stuff in the New Testament**:** all the outcome, perhaps supported by Angels, of a well-designed Roman “cover story”.

(Answered in the last paragraph above—it was my clumsy phrasing that caused the misunderstanding/problem.)

12

Some people believe that the earth is flat, too.

http://www.flat-earth.org/

Of course it is. Which is why after 2000 years of discussion and evaluation by most of the greatest minds of western civilization, nobody could figure it out. Until you, of course. :rolleyes:

13

furt wrote:

FYI: That particular website was intended as a joke.

However, the late Charles K. Johnson’s International Flat Earth Society was deadly serious. Here is a verbatim copy of one of their leaflets: http://www.urbanlegends.com/science/flat_earth_society_flyer.html

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by tracer *
FYI: That particular website was intended as a joke.

[QUOTE]

My Bad. Just hit Flat Earth Society into Google and that came up. Didn’t see that it wasn’t CKJ’s.

15

I think that there is much more to Jesus’ teachings than “be nice”, although, at the daily-practical level, that is a pretty good chunk of advice. I also disagree with your assessment that Jesus’ teachings are “not especially profound”; I think that they are very profound. My view should not be surprising since Jesus’ teachings are the distillation of lots and lots of Jewish religious teachings and lessons,–they themselves [NOMEX on] being built on top of teachings by Zoroaster (and others) [/NOMEX off].

The two most important of Jesus’ teachings (IMHO) are the “two commandments” which he adjured one of his kabitzers to follow. It is these two (supplemented by several recorded analogies about heaven) which, I believe, provided the very earliest “guide posts” to a higher dimensional space than our usual 3-D space (or 4-D space-time, if you prefer that level of accuracy :wink: ).

It has been about 15 years since I read the details (mostly from Yale’s anthropologist M. Coe), but I think that you are refering to the Aztecs, who were not MesoAmericans at all but immigrants from the northern deserts (modern Sonora, Arizona, or New Mexico). As I recall things, the MesoAmericans (say, the “Toltecs”) made offerings of butterflies and flowers, making our own (western) Eurasian anscestors’ livestock offerings seem downright barbaric in contrast. As you say, however, Azteca did “offer” humans (–primarily as a means for the priesthood to maintain power :rolleyes: ).

16

Dark Side? Nyet. Shakespeare. The details can be found in the Straight Dope staff report “What is the Origin of the ‘Primrose Path’?”

IMOH, most religions believe in a “Great Oneness”; say, “Allah which is All” or “the Tao”. Even further IMHO, each individual religion, not surprisingly, sees the “All” through its own “cultural eyes”;–but each and every religion is “looking” at exactly the same thing, just viewing and interpreting it differently.

17

Not everyone believes this because it isn’t clear he was a Jew, if by “Jew” you mean “of the Jewish faith.” There are many “alternate” theories of Jesus and his intentions.

While they do seem a little convoluted in their conclusions, that isn’t to say the evidence they bring up isn’t worthy of respect anyway, and the evidence is thought-provoking.

Check out such titles as “Holy Blood, Holy Grail,” “The Templar Revelation,” and “The Hiram Key” for more information. Each author has their own view of the truth, and build a lot of story around what evidence they do have, but the evidence is presented well, and a diligent reader can see through the story. They will make you think.

Sea, you might also want to check out Crowley’s “Moonchild.” An engrossing read by an infamous mystic, he had similar ideas about humans being multi-dimensional creatures, and that our physical senses only perceive cross-sections of our total body. The book is a fictional novel, but has quite a bit of philosophical diatrabe in it. Well worth reading. He’s got a good sense of humor, too, if you are keen to pick it up.

furt, I am not sure stating that some people believe that Jesus was not a Jew is on par with the Flat Earth Society. I hope you weren’t being serious.

18

I think, erislover, that I originally said that Jesus was a Jew in the context of listing the different religious teachings in which I have, over the years, found {whatever it is that you find in religions that makes you “feel good” or that enlighten you}. That is, I was including the Old Testament in my list. Having looked hard at the issue since you raised it, I’m not sure that it matters to me, with respect to the things that I think are important.

It is true, however, that the New Testament says that Jesus was of the “House of David” (thus the census-registration trip to Bethlehem) and, when a youngster, he was discoursing with the Jewish priests for several days, (after having his dork bobbed after the mode of Abraham’s covenant), thus establishing his formal religion.

At least so it seems to me. :slight_smile:

Thanks, tho, for the info. I’d never heard that about Jesus before.

Afterthought: I’ve just checked our library for Crowley’s “Moonchild” but they don’t have it anywhere in the County system. Will keep my eyes peeled**;** however, this is a general philosophy that I’ve been developing on a personal level ever since I ran into the concept of multi-dimensions in a Freshman year course in Matrices as well as a Sophomore course in groups, rings and fields. (The standard “usual” field, R[sup]n[/sup], is an “n-dimensional” structure.) Still, someone else’s view, even a mystic’s, might be very useful. Thanks.

19

Ah, probably have a hard time finding it at any library. You’ll probably need to purchase it from an occult bookstore, though any bookstore should be able to order it.

Aleister Crowley, Moonchild, first printing by Mandrake Press in 1929, London. First American printing by Samuel Weiser, Inc., 1970. My version was printed in 2000, so it is still circulating. ISBN 0-87728-147-5

I strongly urge a reading of this book; as for his other work, er… you can probably skip most of it. Though his qutobiography of a drug addict (that is close to the title) is supposed to be very good.

20

“Autobiography of a drug addict”? Would that be anything like “Cofessions of an Opium Eater”? :wink:

I finally found it through a labyrinth-like system called “InterLibraryLoans” (I.L.L.). Will follow your suggestion and read it.

(LIKE the title, tho, since I have been involved in several vigourous debates as to why we don’t have a base on the Moon;–the latest, right here in GD!)

The cost is of borrowing a book through this I.L.L. system is mouth-opening (or, at least, my chin dropped enough that my mouth opened). It’s enough that the library could buy an I.L.L. book cheaper than borrowing it. Don’t know why they just don’t cut a CD-ROM and send it. Copyright laws, I suppose. Law-supported gouging at work, as usual. (Might be a good topic for a GD debate;—especially since the Supreme Copyright Authority is prefaced by the words “To promote progress in Science and the Useful Arts…”! :slight_smile: )