Abortion, a different perspective just perceived

Great Debates
1

Hi all

As some of you may know my postings, I came from pro-life to pro-choice through my walk of faith in Christ, and what I believe He showed me. Before that I was so sure that of my position as the obvious choice of God. I believe that blinded me to the harm pro-life position does, forcing women to live with shame and heavy burdens that were never theirs to carry, but cause by those who imposed the shame, and called women baby murderers - including myself. In that I found God was showing me that I was the murderer.

Anyway, one argument I have heard is the fetus is simply tissue that is being removed. Before yesterday I didn’t understand that and just took it as an excuse to hide the truth of what one was doing. It sounds nice and ‘if that’s what you need to believe so you can get on with your life’ type of stuff.

But it finally clicked as a valid (and I believe correct) point of view. It’s the woman’s body entering a reproductive phase which can be interrupted medically, and thus is a choice a woman in modern society should have. For the first time that makes sense.

I say this to let people know that perspectives can be so different and it is so easy to dismiss someone else’s point on the basis of what I stated in my second paragraph and even conclude that they need to believe that in order to live with themselves.

Just for completeness, at this time this is how I make sense of it - not that I have all the answers. I do believe that Christ has shown me my error, though that does not mean he showed me everything about it. With that said this is how I make sense of it now:I feel that the ‘baby’ is a living soul/being but not in this world, nor subject to the rules and laws and spiritual laws that this world has - and thus can not be murdered either, the body is being made for the baby to inhabit, and can try it out to some degree and should to get a taste for this world, but really is in a place with God (biblically ‘secret place underground’ - Job, ‘from the dust you were created’ - Genesis). Where that soul gets bonded to the body I’m not sure but I would suspect it would be somewhere at birth, or separation from the mother, and may even be an action/decision of the baby. If ended before that happens, the baby is just taken home by God, no death, pain or anything (again not subject to this world’s stuff), just as Paul writes about those who Christ will come for. On the baby side it’s really a happy moment. I also feel that God knew that abortion would be such a pressing issue that He, in His wisdom didn’t even give us a choice in the fate of the baby, making a mockery of the way we are going about it.

2

You have made quite the journey over the last 22 years! I remember reading your posts about abortion, and religion in general, back in the 2000’s. I am glad that you are still examining your life, your faith, and thinking critically about the universe, it is something that many people have a hard time doing.

I am not sure what to think of your perspective; I’ll have to chew on it for a while.

3

I’m not sure how one can debate a position such as that when the veracity of the assertion is impossible to determine. At most, one can reject the axioms which I do because the presence of the supernatural or divine has never been demonstrated.

Let’s assume that what you are saying is true for the sake of argument. Is this a scripture based logical conclusion or is it wisdom granted by divine revelation unique to you?

4

I originally intended this for MPSIMS as it was me realizing abortion from the perspective of removing tissue. I felt it was important that people may have trouble even understanding that argument and thus make it difficult to debate or even talk about. Just something I felt people should know that people really do not understand what that means and may think they other person is confused or has believed a lie that they are not going to overcome that belief with logic. It was also quite an amazing perspective to finally understand that such a perspective was real (the thing I wanted to share).

As I added the background, which I also felt important, I realized it was getting into witnessing, so I put in in GB’s instead.

Part is biblically based, part is personal revelation, part is unusual coincidences which I consider had to be of God working in my life.

The biblical part has more to do with confirmation of the other 2, it seems supported by the bible, and in particular the word ‘womb’ as used in the Bible (which is used more of a gateway/portal than a uterus - something that can be open or shut by God)

The unusual coincidences revolved around 5 women confiding in me that they had an abortion. These all happened within 6 month time period. In my life it only happened on other time that a woman confided in me that they had an abortion. For the first one I told she had to repent of abortion as murder, never saw her again. For the next 4 I listened to her instead of talking and her their story. It was not what I expected, and really there was only love for God and the child and a very hard decision from every one, while the hatred was imposed against them. It caused them to suffer in silence and unable to reach out, which they were doing through me, for just some basic understanding and compassion on the burden that was imposed on them.

In church the scripture were Jesus said anger is the sin of murder, the question came to me did you detect any anger in any stories from the stories of the women. I answered yes Lord. The question they came where was the anger in the stories. I answered it was directed at the women. Another question came did you detect any anger from the woman. I said no Lord, not towards the baby, not towards the man, or society and not towards herself or you. The question came who was the murderer, and my thoughts came to that first woman I accused and I felt like a rat bastard as it was me. I still pray for her that she is relieved of any burden that was imposed on her.

The revelation came from a dream, where I saw a room with a little ‘soul’ and a woman. They were in a bedroom and there was an umbilical cord from the little soul to the ceiling. The woman was taking care of the little soul and the little soul was very happen and loved the woman and the woman loved the little soul. Shortly after the door opened and 3 angels came in and said little one your time is up and your body is about to be destroyed, so come with us to God. Very happily the little soul got out of bed (don’t know what happened to the cord), waved bye bye to mom and happily went with them. No pain or even departure sadness. It was simply time to go. A short time later another man, dressed in black came into the room, the woman’s expression went blank and she went to the side and sat down in a chair. The man in black picked up pieces of the flesh and put it in a bag and when all parts were gathered up and placed in the bag he left. The dream ended with an emotionless woman seated on the side of the room blankly staring off. I believe this is the ‘secret place underground’ that is in the book of Job that the unborn life in. There was no indication of an open outside or even windows but had more of an underground structure feel to it. including where the angels/man entered from.

5

Whatever revelation the OP may have had I am hard pressed to find biblical opposition to abortion.

• A pregnant woman who is injured and aborts the fetus warrants financial compensation only (to her husband), suggesting that the fetus is property, not a person (Exodus 21:22-25).

• The gruesome priestly purity test to which a wife accused of adultery must submit will cause her to abort the fetus if she is guilty, indicating that the fetus does not possess a right to life (Numbers 5:11-31).

• God enumerated his punishments for disobedience, including “cursed shall be the fruit of your womb” and “you will eat the fruit of your womb,” directly contradicting sanctity-of-life claims (Deuteronomy 28:18,53).

• Elisha’s prophecy for soon-to-be King Hazael said he would attack the Israelites, burn their cities, crush the heads of their babies and rip open their pregnant women (2 Kings 8:12).

• King Menahem of Israel destroyed Tiphsah (also called Tappuah) and the surrounding towns, killing all residents and ripping open pregnant women with the sword (2 Kings 15:16).

• Isaiah prophesied doom for Babylon, including the murder of unborn children: “They will have no pity on the fruit of the womb” (Isaiah 13:18).

• For worshiping idols, God declared that not one of his people would live, not a man, woman or child (not even babies in arms), again confuting assertions about the sanctity of life (Jeremiah 44:7-8).

• God will punish the Israelites by destroying their unborn children, who will die at birth, or perish in the womb, or never even be conceived (Hosea 9:10-16).

• For rebelling against God, Samaria’s people will be killed, their babies will be dashed to death against the ground, and their pregnant women will be ripped open with a sword (Hosea 13:16).

• Jesus did not express any special concern for unborn children during the anticipated end times: “Woe to pregnant women and those who are nursing” (Matthew 24:19).

6

I agree largely with Whack-a-Mole My take on why abortion is not mentioned in the Bible is because of what I stated, it’s a non-issue for humanity as God didn’t even give us a choice (wouldn’t that be a kicker) , He took over that part (never gave it to us). The Bible in part is what God wants us to know for our lives, my reasoning is since the unborn is His domain the Bible is basically silent on it, and any thing related to the unborn has more to do with hope and expectation or the loss of it and not the same as a person, but also still there as a soul as pointed out in the Bible (baby John leaping in the womb)

I’ve heard, and I’m not sure this is true (as abortion is such a heated issue that people will make anything up to support their side) that the early church promoted abortion as opposed to the pagan tradition of exposure to dispose of an unwanted child. And condemned exposure as murder, but not abortion.

But back to what I believe God has shown me. It’s not abortion that is murder or not, but where is the anger. I believe that an abortion can be committed out of anger on the part of the woman, and that would be the sin of murder, though the women God put in my path as far as I have been shown are sinless in their act as there was no anger in their act.

7

If the woman was raped and wanted an abortion because she was angry about that would that be murder in your opinion?

8

As I see it the emotion would be the sin, not the act. I believe this is what Jesus taught when He described what the sin of murder and adultery is (anger and lust). I also believe our free will is only due to how we chose to react emotionally, and nothing to do with physical acts.

We see it in scriptures, first God is Love (an emotion and the one we are suppose to be also). But it’s more than just a feeling, but a choice. Sin seeks to master us, and it is the emotion we decide to get in bed with for the longer term as I see it. So a brief moment of anger that leads us to overcoming would not be a sin, but hanging onto it (which could lead to abortion) is what I believe Jesus is talking about, and why Jesus is willing to take our burdens.

Free will is what God judges us on, which is only emotion (scripturally: God judges the heart (not the act or mind)). Something as simple as raising or lowering your hand thus is not a free will decision as there is no consequences for either act and no judgement for either, it’s just a function of life. But choosing how one reacts to let’s say getting cut off on the road is a judgeable act. This may be what the knowledge of good and evil is the choice to react and embrace in other emotions other then love

So in this abortion example I’d say if the woman seems to be acting out of anger, so perhaps the sin has mastered her and would be helpless to resist her master which would lead to abortion. Or is she using the anger to lead her to overcome (the sin has not mastered her). That’s between her and God. if she was aborting to kill the rapist child, I’d say that would appear to be sinful, if she was abortion to move on with her life then it would appear no.

9

Have you considered that your views on the subject that are derived from your religion should not be the basis that America uses to passes laws?

10

Have you considered your question? I have not as it was more of a posting of a different perspective but I do question the premise a bit.

How would this work? With the right to vote as an absolute right and abortion right now gone (assuming overturning RvW)? If there was a referendum should I not vote? Is that what the right to vote is about? Should I lay down my pro-choice views because I believe God showed me the damage anti-abortion has caused to women, and some inside information as to what happens at a soul level what happens, and with that aside case a vote for pro-life instead as that is what I am left with? Do we need to have a check box on the ballot, is this vote done for religious reasons? Before I go further in this I guess I need to ask for further clarification.

11

What you are describing is clearly a matter of personal faith and so not something that can be directly addressed by argument, particularly by an avowed atheist such as myself, but I think that your view seems fairly reasonable. If I was still a Christian and believed in a non-physical soul I think my belief would somewhat match yours. The idea that a child is ensouled at conception has some severe flaws given what we now know about fetal development.

First everything we know about consciousness and personality seems to suggest that connection between soul and body requires a brain which doesn’t exist in the fetus until later development.

Second, there is the fact that even without abortion approximately 40-60% of embryos may be lost between fertilization and birth. So god is killing an awful lot of babies if every one is sacred.

Third, there is the question of identical twins, if the soul enters the egg at the moment of fertilization and then splits into two separate entities do they share the same soul? I know that some cultures believe this, but it certainly doesn’t match the traditional Christian understanding of what a soul is.

Then there are Chimiras which are the result one embryo absorbing another one, which results in a person developing from a combination of the two. Does such a person have two souls?

For these reasons it makes much more sense to believe that the mechanism that attaches a soul to a body it occurs most likely at some late stage of development when there is at the very least a brain present.

The one part of your OP that I was confused about was the following.

Why is it necessary for the baby to be taken home by god? Why does he need to exist or be put down at all? I don’t know what your beliefs are regarding souls before they arrive on earth, but presumably you either believe that they are created as needed or are held somewhere and deposited in a body as needed. So why doesn’t that just wait until the time of ensoulment. No one needs to be taken back because no one was put down.

12

I recently had something of an epiphany as well. I’ll try not to hijack too much.

If you have some seeds and you put them on the shelf, they don’t grow into anything. If you drop one on the ground and it starts to sprout, you can pull it up. What is the difference between leaving one on the shelf (never grew into anything) and dropping one (prevented it from growing into something)?

All around the world, millions of women aren’t giving birth as we speak. Just because you have a seed, that doesn’t mean you’re required to use it. Look at nuns, for instance.

We’re talking about chimeras (you spelled it chimiras).

There’s a process where the egg divides 1 cell-2 cells-4 cells-8 cells-16 cells and so on. But sometimes there’s a break at some point and two separate cell lines develop. Look up that Karen Keeley story from your cite. As I recall the doctors were mightily confused and thought one of her kids wasn’t hers. It turned out that the DNA from her blood wasn’t the same as the DNA from her liver or something like that. Somewhere along the line she had a second line of cell division.

https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?contenttypeid=90&contentid=P02132

13

The quick and dirty answer as to why there needs to be a ‘baby soul’ is because that’s what I believe God showed me in the dream (described above in my second post in this thread). So yes God did it :slight_smile:

But going more into this I will also add it appears to agrees with some interesting things in scriptures that makes a lot more sense to have the baby in a ‘secret place’ as compared to being a fetus in the uterus. Specifically ‘in the womb’ baby John leaping, apparently out of joy, that Jesus (also in the womb) was close by. A fetus being confined in a tight fluid environment would not seem capable of anything we would consider leaping.

The other aspect is I don’t agree with would be dismissing the concept of a fetal soul (if bonded to the fetal body or not) , which would also be a belief, but that runs detrimentally contrary to those who believe that their ‘in the womb’ child has a soul. Each pregnancy is different and the relationship between mother and fetus will be highly personal for each one. In this I like to look at it ‘agnostically’, in that if you don’t perceive the soul at that point it does not mean it’s not there but also one is free to act as such until shown otherwise. Some people claim to have experienced it which is fine for them and I accept it. I realize that the concept of a fetal soul does appear to lend support the pro-life camp, but again that’s only an aspect taken out of context that would lead to a pro-life stance.

So back to the question as to why God needs to bring it home, it’s because it exists and not subject to the conditions of this world, thus is not under ‘original sin’, thus is not under the penalty of death. Its time is done and its work complete. To answer your question about pregnancies that do not go to full term, yes i believe it’s possible that’s all that soul needed to do in their ‘journey of the soul’ and like the aborted souls don’t suffer death. It can be sad for us, but not for them, God didn’t kill them, but gave them life eternal.

14

The question is what causes life and if it’s strictly biological or has something of a soul. A seed would seem to be lifeless, a sprout is alive. The difference may be what happens at a soul level, and what causes life to be life in our universe/planet. Is conception a life or an invitation for a soul to bond with to become life? Is the conception more like a flower than a fruit, attracting a life force to inhabit within which may or may not happen?

15

Honestly, I think this is one of those things where, as long as nobody is imposing their beliefs in restriction of the choice of others, ‘whatever gets you through the day’ is the greater good.

Imagine for example, a couple who are grieving after a miscarriage. If we rule that aborted fetuses never had souls anyway, how do we present that to them? We don’t need to have a ‘right answer’ on the topic of souls.

16

No doubt.

As I said in the start of my post, this was a matter of personal faith not argument. This part of my post wasn’t actually meant to challenge Kanicbirds belief so much as to figure out why he felt pre-attached souls were necessary. The answer ended up being a dream he had, so again personal faith which is inarguable, so I’m satisfied with his response.

17

Do you think a soul is immortal?

18

Yes I do

19

If I am following you correctly you would say a soul is imbued at the moment a sperm fertilizes an egg.

If that fertilized egg never makes it to a born baby then what happens to its soul?

Is it different than yours or mine when we die for whatever cause?

20

Please see post number 4, last paragraph.

Very speculative here: The main difference may be our soul is subject to judgement and available for redemption due to us being born in this world and subject to it’s ‘jurisdiction’ and laws which allows for (requires) this, a pre-birth soul which lost its body before entering the world (death in the womb), I believe the dream has shown me is exempt and just goes on in it’s journey.