This thread is for those people who believe abortion is murder and also believe in Capital Punishment. Let’s look at this logically.
All murderers should be executed.
Abortion is murder.
All abortionists should be executed.
Is what you believe? I should add that I am exclusively speaking about those abortions that are done for the sake of convenience, simply becasue the fetus isn’t a wanted human being. Let’s not get into rape and incest here; those are red herrings that take away from the more common type of abortions.
Remember now, don’t rant and rave. It only shows you think with your heart at the expense of your mind.
**Mahaloth ** There was a thread recently that attempted what you’re doing here - “for those who think abortion is murder what do you think the punishment will be” It ran something like 4 or 5 pages. I suggest you check it out.
FTR, I am pro choice, anti death penalty, so I’m not even your target audience here, but I find your question to be artfully composed.
while many pro lifers may be in favor of the death penalty and many pro death penalty folk may in fact be pro lifers, to attempt to draw conclusions from the position some one takes on one issue to predict how they will respond on the other is futile. There are also pro choice people who favor the death penalty, as well as folks who are pro life and anti death penalty, ya know.
Meanwhile, I don’t think that any group of death penalty folk are suggesting that each and every case of homicide should be punished by death, so the premise of “murders should all be executed” will not really fit many people.
Whoa! Don’t yell at me. I’m not trying to do anything to anyone!! I am against abortion and I do believe in capital punishment! If anything, I was simply trying to remove my own bias out of the thread.
The folks who believe this use the following as their rationale:
A fetus is an innocent life.
Whereas the death penalty punishes only guilty lifes.
Yes, I am aware of the arguments here: That the DP does kill innocent people, is the obvious one. I ain’t willing to defend this one, kiddies, I’m just reporting what I’ve been told.
They also come back with: How can you be against the death penalty, which gets rid of murderers and rapists, yet be all in favor of killing babies?
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FWIW, just one little semantics point: Many who believe in your “illogical” premise will tell you executing someone is not murder, in the original biblical sense. Sort of an Old Testament righteous “eye for an eye” thing. So those that believe this won’t find it illogical at all. And as wring pointed out, most pro death penalty folks I am sure don’t believe EVERY single murderer should be executed.
Also I am pro choice, and would be pro death penalty if it could be done equitably, and those like OJ could get the chair while adult men in Texas with the IQ’s of six year olds get a life sentence.
Ok, I’m starting to think that there is confusion about what this thread is for. Let me explain a little clearer so we can focus the discusion. My muddled attempt to keep my own views out of the discussion seems to have caused confusion.
Here is what I believe. A fetus is a human being like you and me and when it is aborted for the sake of convenience(“I don’t want it”, etc.) this is murder. At the same time, I believe in Capital Punishment for all murderers, like Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer(I know neither are alive anymore anyway Bundy-executed, Dahmer-murdered).
I should add that I don’t believe in our current Capital Punishment system, which makes people wait years before they are executed.
Now, I have known several women who have gotten abortions, some whom regret their decision. I love these people, just like I would love any friend who had commited any horendous act. In fact, I have commited horendous acts of equal “negative worth”.
I guess I wonder how someone who is for Capital Punishment and believes abortion is murder can NOT believe in the execution of people who get abortions?
Well, first off, you are talking about legal situations. Capital punishment is the punishment for certain crimes only. Currently, by law, abortion is not considered illegal or murder.
If it were up to me, capital punishment would be for murder, but you would need at least two witnesses. Two witnesses is the Biblical standard. I would have a law that makes abortion murder. Hence, abortionists would get the death penalty if there were two witnesses. I would assume that everyone present would be guilty of accessory to murder. Is that what it’s called?
two witnesses? in what way? are you talking eye witnesses?
If you are, please re-evaluate. Consider: Bad guy holding up store accidently kills cashier, then, because he doesn’t want eye witnesses to the event, proceeds to kill the other 3 people in the store. Viola, no witnesses, no conviction in your scenario.
Also, check out information about the reliability of eye witness testimony.
(by the way, you were right, “accessory” would be the charge).
I still think the OP has a problem in the scenario, since there’s different categories generally for murder.
Unless of course, you’re also proposing to do away with that, so that an accidental death should also be guilty and sentenced to death.
Numbers 35:30
30 ‘If anyone kills a person, the murderer shall be put to death at the evidence of witnesses, but no person shall be put to death on the testimony of one witness.’
And I meant eyewitness. Numbers 35 also defines what a murder is: intent matters.
Really? are you aware of how ** few ** murders occur in front of any eye witnesses (let alone two of them)?
For example:
Ted Bundy - zero eye witnesses to any of his murders (yes, there were a couple of women who didn’t die, but they were unable to identify him as their attacker), lots of forensics
Jeff Dahmer - zero eye witnesses to murder, lots of forensics
John Wayne Gacy - zero eye witnesses to murder, lots of forensics
Jasper TX - the evidence for the 3 guys who dragged a man to his death consisted of forensic evidence (and one of them testified against the others) = ONE eye witness.
Case in Meridian Township that I personally know about : bad guys break into an apartment, shooting all three occupants, kill 2, one only injured = ONE eye witness.
I suggest that if you’re unwilling to re-evaluate your standards on this, that you SERIOUSLY make your beliefs known should you ever be called for jury duty. You should be disqualified for cause.
So do you believe that abortion providers and people who get abortions should be executed? Or do you believe they should NOT be executed, and you are trying to reconcile that belief with your other beliefs regarding murder and capital punishment? I’m not trying to put words in your mouth or ask a loaded question, I’m just trying to get a handle on what you are saying.
Personally, I think that calling abortion “murder” implies a belief in a certain level of premeditation and intent that equates aborting a fetus with, say, killing a 4-year-old child at the behest of his/her mother. So if you believe that abortion is murder AND support capital punishment, then the death penalty for abortion providers/seekers seems to be the only logical conclusion you can reach. I mean, if I started a post-partum abortion clinic and provided services to mothers who wanted to off their 4-year-olds, I would be sitting on death row pretty quickly. So either abortion is murder, and you need to do something more drastic than protesting in front of clinics, or it is something other than murder, and calling it “murder” is a misrepresentation of the act that only serves to inflame public opinion.
Here’s the deal. I don’t think Dahmler, Bundy, Jasper, etc. caught God off-guard. He isn’t sitting around up in heaven saying, “Ooops. I didn’t think of the fact that someone might commit murder without two witnesses being present.” The point is not whether or not they are guilty of murder, it is whether or not they will receive the death penalty for it. Lock them up for life. I’m not saying that they should go unpunished, just that I’m not going to sentence someone to death when there were less than two witnesses.
Why do you choose a biblical standard for (I assume we’re referring to the United States) the government to use in meting out punishment? Why not use the Koran?
And if you ARE using a literal translation of scripture to decide what punishment the government should dole out…then people should be executed for the following:
(from religioustolerance.org)
for adultery: Leviticus 20:10 states: And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbor’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death
for sexual activity before marriage; Deuteronomy 22:13-21 concludes: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die…"…
for prostitution; Leviticus 21:9 states: And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.
for being seduced if engaged; Deuteronomy 22:23-24 states: If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die
for kidnapping; Exodus 21:16 states: And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
for cursing parents; Exodus 21:17 states: And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
for careless handling of an animal; Exodus 21:29 states: But if the ox …hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.
for working on Saturday; Exodus 35:2 states: …but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. Numbers 15:32-36 described a man who was executed because he gathered wood on Saturday.
FTR, I’m anti-legal abortion and anti-death penalty.
Most of my friends share the former, but not the latter. I think they would regard a distraught young woman who got an abortion out of fear and confusion (yes, I know that this is not the typical abortion recipient) as far less culpable as someone who makes his living doing ten abortions a day at $400 a pop. I think they might advocate that doctor as a canidate for the chair.
