Satan wrote:
I didn’t think they could use that technique after the first trimester.
(Ducking & running)
Favorite bumper sticker:
If you don’t like abortion, don’t get one!
Yer pal,
Satan
First Place
Most Popular Poster of the 20th Century Competition
As overseen by Coldfire
I can’t believe this is actually happening here. This has got to be the most contentions issue that one can discuss in the United States - and thankfully the good denizens of the SDMB seem to leave it alone most of the time.
However:
Missing the point. Many human lives have dependencies - I know very few 2 year olds that could survive without their mothers, or someone else’s aid. In the case of the 2 year old, this certainly does not mean that the person who provides this recquired aid has discretion over the life and death of the child.
Why do you have discretion 5 minutes before birth? 3 months before? 9 months before?
As has been pointed out before, the real question we are dealing with is when does humanity begin. Now, if you believe in the soul, you might argue that a soul gets bound into the fertilized egg at conception, but I still do not see that as necessitating humanity. A fertilized egg has no thoughts, no feelings; it does not react to stimuli. In fact, beyond its genetic code it has none of teh qualities that we assiciate with human life.
A baby outside of teh womb has all of the qualities we associate with human life.
A baby inside the womb has many of the qualities we associate with human life, but not all of them. It does not breath air, for example. Is a baby in the instant before birth human? That is indeed a great debate. Is a fertilized egg human? By what criteria do you define humanity?
BTW, on the point of dependence, it is true that many humans are dependent upon someone else. A fetus, however, lives inside a human being and survives parasitically off of that host…
Now, as to the question of those of us who have experienced the loss of a pregnancy, it hurts. We did wanted that child, and we wanted to love it and to share that love with our friends and our families. It was not a human being when it died, but it was our hope of a human being. And it hurt. If you cannot understand that then we should perhaps be debating your humanity.
The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*
Maybe we should abort this thread before it reaches the end of its first trimester… after that it would be murder, but then killing threads is almost common practice in America.
“Wow! Spider-Man! Are you really friends with the X-men?”
"Not since Cyclops tried to use my viewmaster."
(Marvel Team Up #1)
Hey, pro-lifers–what’s the difference between a human being five minutes before the 18th anniversary of its birth, and five minutes after; and why does the latter have more rights than the former?
“It’s my considered opinion you’re all a bunch of sissies!”–Paul’s Grandfather
When an egg is fertilized and travels to the womb to begin growing, if you do not interrupt this process, you will give birth to a (hopefully) live, and healthy child.
Therefore, to interrupt this process IS ending the process of life, and IMHO is murder.
I’ve known a number of women (and girls too, for that matter) who have had abortions and were unprepared for the aftermath of guilt and shame they experienced. I used to be on the fence on this issue until I saw my unborn son in utero through the wonder of ultrasound. It was an amazing sight to see ‘DJ’ before he was in my arms. He swam, he sucked his thumb and yes, I swear it looked like he waved to us (okay, I DO have a pretty good imagination!)
The politicizing of this issue is heartbreaking to me. Abortion clinics aren’t held to the same level of cleanliness that regular clinics are, and because the bottom line of abortion clinics is money, follow up checkups aren’t done, so exact numbers and health problems are ignored.
I don’t believe most women who have abortions want to have them at all, they feel pressured to do it, either by the ‘father’ or by their parents or the economic situations they may be in, and then they are met with screaming meemies at the clinics when they are already scared to death, they are called ‘murderers’. That doesn’t make the girl less scared,and it makes anyone who believes abortion wrong look like loonies incapable of human feeling.
I would like the government to get out of it, though I don’t see that happening any time soon. Maybe Life Classes taught in junior high (age showing!! MIDDLE schools now) and in high schools, where kids see the fetus at different stages. But then, people scream about that too, don’t they, ah me. Just educate and gently cajole where ya can I guess.
Not about to duck, or goose, or fowl of any kind here…
Judy
Moderen Medicine has drastically lowered the ‘age’ a baby can be prematurly born and still live a normal healthy life.
One of my kids was born at 27 weeks and lived with the help of modern medicine.
When did his soul/spirit form then? I would say it has to be conception.
I wanted to add a personal pet peeve of mine, experienced mainly at church.
People get bent over the use of ‘anti’ describing their belief on abortion. I’ve actually heard, ‘Being ‘anti’ is SO negative’. Oh please! The issue IS abortion, and you’re either for it, or against it, being against MEANS ‘anti’. You can’t be ‘Pro Life’, the issue at hand is the procedure itself. I would assume, EVERYONE (except Dr. Jackie the K) is for life. The same with ‘choice’, it is cleaner, and it certainly sounds nicer. But, everyone is for choices too, THAT isn’t about the procedure either. Maybe this sounds like it is about semantics, but I don’t find it accidental that people find it easier to be ‘pro’ gun control, or ‘anti’ gun control. In fact, every issue that comes to mind, falls easily into those categories, except abortion. I wonder why…squeamishness??
Ok, peeving is over, I’ll move on to other topics now!
'Night
“Consider it a challenge…”
Thats a good question,Phil,and I’ve always wondered myself how someone magically becomes “mature” when they are 18. It ttok me til21.
I think that most people have much more nuanced opinions towards abortion than those at the extremes would lead you to think. I find it hard to believe that anyone goes off cheerfully to get an abortion, between running out to get the groceries and pick up the drycleaning.
For me, extremists stirring up a cloud of venom about abortion obscure the real issue, which is simply that of unwanted pregnancies. With careful, correct use of birth control, things should rarely get to the decision point. Ergo, no controversy.
::deep breath:: If people would keep in mind that pregnancy is one possible consequence of sex, and have sex only with those with whom they would like to begin families, it would make things much calmer, if no doubt more boring.
Well, I’ll be slinking out the side door now.
royalbill:
OK, fair warning–I’m going to be really mean and somewhat glib here in order to present a certain reversal of a commonly used argument in order to make a point.
How could you play God like that, with your child’s life? How do you know God didn’t intend for your child to die? How do you know you aren’t aiding the next Hitler?
Rose: More to the point, we as humans are in the habit of making arbitrary distinctions, in this case that a human prior to its 18th birthday has fewer rights than a human afterwards. So it isn’t inherently unreasonable to argue that, based upon the arbitrary distinction of “born” vs. “not-born,” one has fewer rights in the latter case. We just have to decide what exactly they are.
“It’s my considered opinion you’re all a bunch of sissies!”–Paul’s Grandfather
Please count me in the anti-abortion, pro-choice camp.
I don’t like the idea of abortion, but I like even less the prospect of women being forced to carry an unwanted child to term.
What bothers me is that virulent anti-abortion protestors seem to lose all interest in the welfare of the child as soon as it’s outside of the uterus. If human life is so precious to them, why aren’t they doing everything in their power to preserve it after birth?
If I had my druthers, abortion would be legal, safe, and very rare. Instead of picketers screaming at girls outside of clinics, snipers murdering doctors, and arsonists burning clinics down, people would devote their resources to educating and empowering both men and women in making responsible decisions about their sexuality.
I suspect, though, that the hostile, vocal portion of anti-abortion advocates have more of a problem with open discussions of sexuality and the sharing of sexual power than they do with the messy, tangled ethical ramifications of abortion.
Every child should be a wanted child, and I believe that can be accomplished without abortion. But it will mean more to our society (culture, nation, whathaveyou), if we get to that point by individuals taking responsibility for their ability to procreate than it will by fiat legislation.
Anti Pro:
Well, that’s like complaining that the specialist you were referred to by your main physician did not do follow-up work, or the surgeon didn’t check you out a year after an operation. An abortion clinic is a specialist - it is the duty of the referring physician to do follow-up work, like in any case.
Certainly not, since the religious right is determined not to let it go ever.
Oh, and you are right that the term “Pro-life” is just another salvo in the battle of semantics. Fact is, most people are against abortion personally, but feel that telling a woman what to do with her body is reprehensible. Hence, “Pro-Choice,” which is exactly what most are. Not as many feel they are “Pro-Abortion,” or as the other side of the coin like to say, “Pro-Death.”
It’s also a fake-ass term because most of the politics from so-called “Pro-Life” people are anything BUT pro-life. They’re against gun control. They’re for a stronger military force. They’re for aggressive foreign policies. They’re for China in spite of their own views on human rights.
Ultimately, most “Pro-Life” people are not “Pro-Life,” they are “Pro-I get to choose who lives and dies.”
royalbill:
Please tell me the medical definition of a soul/spirit.
Yer pal,
Satan
First Place
Most Popular Poster of the 20th Century Competition
As overseen by Coldfire
Problem is, if the pro-lifers are right, that’s like saying: “Against genocide? Don’t fry Jews!”
The bumper stickers on the other side aren’t any better, of course: “Abortion stops a beating heart” is true, but so does eating a hamburger at Mickey D’s. Not to mention the death penalty or Desert Storm.
I think Spiritus got us to the fundamental question with “As has been pointed out before, the real question we are dealing with is when does humanity begin.” I might add that I second his post in its entirety (including the last paragraph, having been through that too).
I don’t know when humanity begins, but it seems a bit much to me to assume that a creature that doesn’t have a brain yet (i.e. the fetus during its first several weeks), has a soul (whatever we mean by that).
One question is, how much consideration do we give to the fact that this creature, whether a person or not, is on its way to becoming one?
One difference between the fetus five minutes before birth and five minutes after, is that before, it can still threaten the mother’s life by its very existence. If it were to evr come down to an either-or, my wife lives and the baby dies; I’m not flipping a coin.
Hopefully, that comveys some of my mixed feelings on the subject, and advances the discussion at the same time.
I am a woman. I have been pregnant five times. Three live births, one miscarriage, one abortion. Thus being the case, I’m going to toss in my two cents.
My first pregnancy resulted in a beautiful, healthy baby girl. I placed her for adoption. That was my choice. No one told me I had to do it. The law did not force me to stay pregnant. I did it of my own free will.
My second pregnancy was the abortion. I went to Planned Parenthood. I did not walk in and say “I’d like an abortion, please,” and then got one. No. I called. I had to wait a week. The clinic was clean, the staff extraordinarily kind and considerate, and I was there for about 6 hours. I was counselled about all of my options. I had up until about 15 seconds before the procedure began to change my mind. It was a decision I do not regret.
My third pregnancy ended in early miscarriage. It was traumatic, and I was very sad, but when a pregnancy spontaneously aborts that early, it’s usually for a very good reason, and beyond my control.
My fourth pregnancy was planned. It resulted in my delightful daughter Diana, who is now 2 years old. Really, really two. But I love her anyway. 
My fifth pregnancy was not planned. My husband and I had decided that we only wanted one child, but we didn’t take the approprate steps to prevent another one soon enough. Well, we now have a 2 year old daughter and a 3 month old son. I don’t regret having the boy, either. He’s mighty cute.
Five pregnancies, four choices. I feel that each choice I made was the right one for me to make, at the time I had to make it. I am forever grateful that the law allowed me to have the right to choose, and if I had to go back in time and make those choices again, I am very sure that the end result would be the same.
There. That’s my perspective. Hope you don’t mind me sharing.
Many fertilized eggs fail to survive to birth even when nobody does anything to interrupt the process; the zygote has a pretty good chance of spontaneously aborting before the woman even knows she’s pregnant. Is willfully using contraception also murder? After all, you’re interrupting the natural process that would have resulted in pregnancy.
Is the fertilized egg a child? If so, aborting it is murder.
A person who has an abortion is only likely to feel guilt and shame over it if she believes it’s murder. If that’s the case, she shouldn’t have one. I can also mention my personal anecdotal evidence about abortion- the women and girls I know who’ve had abortions felt no shame or guilt, only incredible relief. They went on to complete school, build lives, and eventually had families by choice when they were economically prepared to support their children.
My personal experience with people who’ve had abortions would refute that, but my experiences may be different than yours (obviously). I have, however, known several women and girls who were pressured to carry their babies to term. Those who kept their babies have generally been unable to provide adequate economic or emotional support to their children (of course there are exceptions here); those who gave their babies up for adoption invariably have suffered more guilt and anguish than I can imagine.
Do these feelings of guilt and anguish prove that adoption is wrong? I don’t think so. Do feelings of guilt and anguish among women who’ve had abortions prove that abortion is wrong? Again, I don’t think so.
Why don’t i, a man, have a right to an abortion? Nothing draconian. Within 30 days of formal notification i should be able to sign a waiver and renounce any paternal rights and obligations. Men were endowed by our maker with reproductive freedom, too. Seems an overlooked instance of sex inequality under the law.
Because, yamo, an abortion ends a pregnancy, and there is nothing left over. Once a baby is born, it is deserving of all the resources due to it - including the financial (and hopefully emotional) support of its father.
You don’t get to make the decision about whether or not to abort a pregnancy. That decision can only be made by the woman. She is the only one in the equation that can be pregnant, after all. If she decides to bring the pregnancy to term and give birth, then you have a say in what happens to the child.
Is there inequity? Yes. However, biology cannot be changed, and better we insist that the adults involved be held accountable then let a child suffer.
But if Only She decides to give birth shouldn’t Only She be the only one to bear the burden? Seems like taxation w/o representation. Un-American.