Abortion: We've been having the wrong argument.

Great Debates
1

It seems as if there’s so much invested in the polarity of the right to choose/morality of killing the unborn that we’ve been missing the point completely.

The right to abort a pregnancy should remain intact because we as a people have demanded it, and, well, it’s obvious that we need it as a society.

The real problem is that members of our society kill their unborn from time to time.

Aborting a baby is very very rarely (if ever) a good thing. I think we can all agree that the actual act of abortion is bad right? Even to those who advocate the right to choose, making the choice and ending the pregnancy isn’t a good thing, (whereas good= not pregnant against ones wishes, or good= not being in this situation) right?

I hope we can all agree that the less abortions people have the better, right?

I think those who deny that the baby at any stage from conception on is (at least to some extent) a life, are kidding themselves. I think if the argument over legality of abortion ends, “pro-choicers” will concede this point.

I think “Pro Lifers” have been arguing so much about the law that we’ve been missing the opportunity to devote needed resources to mitigating the circumstances that make it necessary to have abortions.

I know people that vote strictly “pro life” despite a candidate’s postion on social policy and funding of social programs. It seems like the interest should shift toward electing people who are devoted to dealing with the actual problem rather than simply making it illegal to have a symptom.

I dunno, opinions?

2

I disagree, and so do many people. This bit is opinion, BUT:

Wrong-o. No matter how confident I am in the legality of abortion, I wouldn’t concede this point. To agree that a baby is alive from conception is to agree that abortion is murder. Thus, you won’t get many pro-choicers to do it, and you sure won’t catch me saying it.

I’d agree as long as the reduced abortions are due to choice, not coersion.

Sounds reasonable to me, but I’m strongly pro-choice, so I guess I’m not the target audience for that comment.

I don’t know that pro-lifers are devoting all their resources to the abortion issue. If you ask me, the moronic “abstinence-only” education now being foisted upon kids comes from pretty much the same people.

3

I agree with Marley23.

If a fetus is a ‘life’, then abortion clearly IS murder. There’s just no other way around that. And if you believe abortion is murder, then you would also have to argee that shooting up abortion clinics is the morally correct thing to do.

When someone is murdering babies, the moral thing to do is to stop them at all costs, even if you have to kill them to protect the innocent. If you think abortion is taking a ‘life’, you SHOULD be bombing the abortion clinics, in order to be logically consistant.

4

No, actually, we cannot. At least I can’t agree to that broad statement. Sorry, it isn’t a black & white issue.

Change “isn’t a good thing” to say “isn’t any easy/light decision to make” and we could agree on that.

Sorry - we can’t all agree to that. That word “all” is gonna get you, here.
IANA Junior Mod, but I really think this will veer into GD territory.

greck, I don’t have any beef with ya here, I just disagree almost 100% with you.

5

I think you are mostly wrong on the premmises pointed out, but if what you are looking for is improved resources for preventing unwanted pregnancy then the fact is that is pro choice would agree with you there. But there again you are going to wind up with problems, because so far all we hear from the “Pro life” side is “well you shouldn’t have gotten pregnant” and “abstinence” , most of us see those as cop outs.

6

Bartender: Hey, I can’t serve you! Your ID says you aren’t 21 yet.

Customer: That’s OK, I’m pro-life! I’m nine months older than that. Life begins at conception.

Bartender: Whoops, I guess you’re right. What’ll you have?

7

Um, no. It is not ‘logical’ to resort to violence when there are non-violent options available. There are fortunately plenty of ways to oppose abortion that are non-violent - such as by working within the system to change legislation, offering support for alternatives to abortion (i.e., the The Nurturing Network), PEACEFUL protests, dispensing birth control (see below) and the like. My firm belief is that violence is not only needless, but NOT particularly effective. Think Black Panthers vs. Martin Luther King Jr. Which side is remembered now as the most effective civil rights advocate? MLK Jr., the non-violent one.
I am pro-life partly because I am very non-violent by nature. It would NOT be logically consistent for me to say “Killing is not an appropriate way to solve the problems of unplanned pregnancy” and then kill someone myself.

Anyway, I think greck IS on to something. Abortion is a symptom of a bigger social problem: Lack of birth control education, AND lack of social support for women who get pregnant young, poor, and/or while still in school. We can do a lot to address these problems without getting into the thorny issue of if abortion should stay legal or not.
One does not need to believe abortion should be outlawed to advocate respect and support for teenage mothers. One does not need to think abortion needs to stay legal to believe accurate information about birth control should be promoted more.
You will probably never get pro-choicers to agree that abortion takes a life, nor will you get pro-lifers to ever agree that abortion is “needed”. Those are obviously very debatable and very divisive issues.
However, I DO think you CAN get both side to agree that more could be done to prevent abortion.
Even though I am avidly pro-life, I like to draw attention to the pro-choice Alan Guttmacher Institute’s data on contraceptive usage. These stats show that a very significant number of abortions could be prevented if contraception were used correctly and consistently by more people.
Increasing contraception use is something that BOTH sides of the abortion debate can and should be willing to encourage.
Yes, there are some loudmouths on the pro-life side who are against contraception, but they don’t speak for all pro-lifers. I think many pro-lifers of the younger generations can see the role for contraception in reducing abortion - at least once they find out how much the lack of contraception feeds into America’s high (compared to many European countries) abortion rate.

8

Not so. The morally correct thing to do is to prevent abortions. This does not mean that there is a moral imperative to shoot up abortion clinics.. Killing should always be a last resort, and vigilante justice – while sometimes necessary – should never be undertaken lightly. Besides, if the more important goal is to prevent abortion in general – both short-term and long-term – then such an approach is both short-sighted and counterproductive, for reasons explained in the article which I cited.

9

There was a time when society demanded slavery, and deemed it to be necessary. Such an argument holds no water.

10

Any stage from conception? Don’t be ridiculous. Hell, I think abortions should be permitted retroactively for thirty years or so by popular vote…

[ducking]

11

Where is that ballot?

12

Just because it is a life form does not mean it is a human life form. We kill plants and animals and that does not mean we as a society have a problem that needs to be addressed.

13

Checks forum… yup, IMHO.

I can’t agree with this. I see nothing inherently wrong with the average abortion, or with the theoretical act of abortion. Preventing a conception is IMO better, simply because it’s cheaper, easier, proactive, less involved and intrusive and there’s less social hangups about it, but that doesn’t equate to abortion being bad, just that other options are usually better.

I agree with this. Once the process of fertilisation is complete, IMO it is a life.

I disagree with this. Some will, some won’t. There is a large number of pro-choicers who won’t for one second consider that a fetus is a discrete life. Doesn’t matter if the law says one thing or another, they’ll cling to justifying their beliefs by their own morality, as do we all.

That’s my mixed bag. I agree with some, disagree with others.

Care to comment back ?

14

Just curious, why do you see that as a cop out?

15

Abortion: We’re having this argument in the wrong Forum

Moving this to Great Debates.

16

pro-choicers. No such word. Choicers should be choosers.

17

You’re joking, right?

18

I can not speak for furlibusea, but for myself, these statements have less to do with protecting theoretical children than they do with ‘punishing’ women for having sex.

19

This was probably posted in jest, but some cultures in asia do count the 9 months towards a person’s life (specifically Korea, maybe others). Does anyone know if abortion is legal there?

20

JT said…

“and vigilante justice – while sometimes necessary – should never be undertaken lightly”

I’m sure that anyone willing to go on the offensive against abortion clincs and doctors sees themselves as a member of some kind of resistance party, fancies themselves to be a kind of covert operative, who will die, if necessary to get their “important” work done. Those facts don’t make it right. Oh, and by the way, comparing abortion to slavery? Please. :rolleyes:
(I know, not ALL PLers, I got it)

Greck, that’s a clever attempt at an end run, but those blanket statements will kill your argument dead.

Greck said…

"I think “Pro Lifers” have been arguing so much about the law that we’ve been missing the opportunity to devote needed resources to mitigating the circumstances that make it necessary to have abortions."

The point of the pro-life crowd has seldom been the problem of legality, they claim to argue from a moral/religious standpoint, meanwhile, the far right leaning representatives of their cause continue to spread a viral kind of rhetoric, threaten abortion clincs and providers with violence, and sometimes take the threats to the extent of action. I know that not all pro-lifers gather in secret to plan the bombings of family planning centers, but the truth is, that doesn’t matter, the squeaky wheel truly does get the grease (albeit unwanted) in this scenario.

At this point in time, abortion is legal. The PL crowd needs to stop harassing people that are engaging in a legal activity. By all means, do what you will to further your agenda politically, it is the American way after all, however the flies with honey axiom has never been more apropos.

JET,

I’d be willing to bet furli meant that those things are cop outs in the same way the “just say no” arguement was. Words are easily spoken, actions are arduously taken. It’s too simple, too Norman Rockwell (not that he’s an example mind you) to be effective in modenr society. As you well know, modern life is far more complex than it has ever been, that fact just cannot be shoved aside or ignored by simplistic platitudes.

Personally, I believe the abortion thing to only be my business if it is me who is having the baby. Which, due to my current anatomical configuration, is bloody unlikely.