And here, of course, is the problem. Is it appropriate or even logical to talk about a full-term in utero baby as simply tissue? Arguably not. Is it appropriate or even logical to talk about a six-cell zygote as a baby? Arguably not. The problem is where and when one becomes the other, and there’s no way all of us are ever going to agree about that.
I just do not understand – and have never understood – why people would put the future and the rights of a potential person above the future and the rights of a person who already exists. Do I believe abortion as a matter of course should be allowed in the eighth or ninth month? Frankly, no. Do I believe abortion as a matter of course should be allowed in the first, second, or third months? Heck yes. But nobody’s mind is ever changed in these debates anyway.
How can you say what the potential was for the fetus in the picture? For every potential president, there’s a potential serial killer, and everything in between. With regulated, legal abortion, one potential life is lost. With illegal, unsanitary, back-alley abortions (the one in the picture took place in a hotel room), there’s much more of a chance of two lives being lost, one of whom probably has a living, breathing family who actually loves her and cares to keep her in the world.
If you don’t like abortions, don’t get one. But those of you who value life should understand that either way, lives will be lost, and some of them won’t just be “potential”. Keeping abortion legal is not a moral issue, it’s a public health issue.
“Buffalo Bills? Oh, yeah. The guys that always snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.” --WallyM7
Rather than site any article or blather that would confuse the issue, I offer personal experience. Every February 27th my wife and I celebrate a horrendous mistake. When we were young and she claimed she wasnt sure if we were perfect for each other she had become pregnant (2 years into the relationship) and without letting me voice my half of my concerns (as she should have as that child was half mine as well) she decided to listen to the womens lib advocate at the planned parenhood clinic. Might I add if these people ever said “dont” abort they would be out of business, so it makes sense they never do.
Instead of taking the advice of her future mother in law and even her future husband she listened to a woman unable to ever understand this situation (a tubetied lesbian). We now remember the biggest mistake of our lives every year. Bitter? Hell yes. Slighted? Hell yes. Does she regret it? Every day. Does she cry to sleep quite often? Yes. Can she ever have children now thanks to that operation? We still have yet to see but after 4 years of trying Id say it looks bad.
Rather than listen to those who cite articles all day long, or cannot or have not faced this situation, go to those who have. Then make your decision with all the facts, not myths.
And as one man to many others, I say this. I have been shot twice in my life, and never did it hurt like it did the day I sat in a waiting room and waited as my first child was “ended”. It was cowardice to let down on that issue, failure as a father, it haunts me to today. I returned every medal I was ever awarded for heroism the next week, as in the moment I needed to be brave, courageous and fight on, I let myself and my daughter down.
Any of you who are parents or were close enough to know, know that you know your child long before they are born. Imagine snuffing out that child, your new best little buddy, the one who you see in dreams and see on monitors, and talk to.
If the people of the world knew the pain that it causes and the mistake it is, they wouldnt let it go on.
Jodi, I can just see the pro-lifers marching around outside porno stores with posters showing little crumpled up kleenexes. “Oh, the loss of potential human life! Isn’t it tragic!” ::gasp:: <img src=“http://www.elnet.com/~sburch/sjbgrin.gif” height=15 width=15>
Oh, it was a joke. I do not really think that pro-lifers would ever do that, nor would any reasonable person think so…it’s silly. That’s why I said it, because it was silly. Implying that a woman who died was somehow “guilty” is offensive and not at all amusing.
Let me be the first to say that I’m sorry for your regrets.
That having been said, I must say something about your misinformation. Planned Parenthood does not do abortions, and AFAIK they don’t receive kickbacks from referrals to clinics. They have absolutely no vested interest in getting abortions for their patients, and will offer information about abortion clinics, pregnancy and parenting, and adoption. They also perform the valuable service of providing low-cost birth control and gynecological exams for low-income families and women without health insurance. They only provide what women ask for and need. Once again, not a moral issue, a public health issue.
And why would a lesbian need to have her tubes tied?
“Buffalo Bills? Oh, yeah. The guys that always snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.” --WallyM7
As sorry as I am for your remorse, it raises a couple of issues.
First, if she felt this strongly about it when she made the decision, would she have gone through the risks of a back-alley abortion if it were illegal?
If so, then take solace, as you might have lost a fetus AND your wife.
Secondly, if your wife was not listening to you, the father, and instead a “lesbian with her tubes tied,” seems to me that she SHOULD grieve for a mistake, as she obviously did not have the maturity to make a decision.
Which is what it boils down to. Just because your wife lacked the maturity to make a decision, and as a reault feels she has chosen badly, don’t take away that right from those who CAN make a decision, and knows very well how to live with it.
I can’t say what the potential was. Yea, maybe a serial killer. Maybe the person who would have discovered the cure to AIDS. Probably just a regular little boy or girl who laughs, cries, wants to be loved, and grows up to be a regular person in a regular life.
That’s the thing about lost potential. No one will ever know.
BTW, I am pro-choice. For public health reasons. Abortion’s just a sad choice to make.
Also, not that it matters, but some PP clinics have done abortions. I had a nanny who got one at a PP clinic about 5 or 6 years ago. I could be mistaken about the name on the door, but I’m pretty sure it was Planned Parenthood.
Well, Newton, I have been in the same position that you were in. And my take on abortion is pretty much diametrically opposed to your own. I don’t celebrate whathappened, I do, though, understand that it was the best solution available.
Now, if you think that your wife was required to let you have a say over what she did with her body, that’s your call. But when you say that if the people at Planned Parenthood ever told someone, “Don’t abort” that they would go out of business, then you do a disservice. I worked as an escort at the local PP office for about two years, and spoke to the people there. They were fair, and they allowed the women who came to see them to make their own decisions. As a matter of fact, when my wife became pregnant with our daughter, she wound up going to an OB/GYN who had worked at the clinic. Whether or not she was paid, or volunteered her time, I don’t know. I can’t imagine a better doctor to have had.
You are perfectly within your rights to be bitter, but how, exactly, were you slighted? Were either of you told that this particular procedure would be a walk in the park and that she would put her nipples to the breeze and be hitting the singles bars within the hour?
And many people regret things that they have done, or not done. Did your wife believe that her decision would not have repercussions?
Good idea! Just understand that not everyone who has faced this situation shares your opinion.
Except that what was snuffed out was not, IMHO, a child. It was, instead, something that was more than either of us could have dealt with. But I was thrilled when my daughter was born.
You are correct Above poster. Planned Parenthood OWNS AND OPERATES the clinic I sat in on 22nd and O ST in Sacramento. The pamphlets there were theirs, the name tags were their, the CHECK I WROTE WAS TO THEM. I think you need to re-examine the evidence. They also did the follow-up exams in which they failed to note heavy clotting and complications due to “shotty” work and a “hurried surgery”. Thank god for Kaiser (dare I say it) since they saved her reproductive system since PP almost ruined it.
The fact that some of you also feign concolation and then followit up with attacks further illustrates a prevalent attitude I see here. A "feeding frenzy: approach by many posters. Smell blood, see wounds, finish it off and kill it. Where is the Un or Red Cross of this board, Im hurt and in need of fixing.
Newton, no one has attacked you; to the contrary, people have acknowledged your personal experience while disagreeing with the conclusions you draw from it.
Here’s the leap I’m not personally making: YOU (or you and your S.O.) made a decision; YOU had regrets about it – deep regrets, apparently. How does that in any way qualify you to make that decision on behalf of everyone else who might be in the same or similar position? You regretting your choice, and that IS too bad, but at least you had the right to choose.
I give up AGAIN. It appears that hard headedness prevails no matter what anyone says. That human right is one we should have taken away.
I’ll say this as a concession though, rape victims are a special set of circumstances.
A quandry at best,then the decision is this, does the child suffer for how it was brought to the world, and be killed, or be put up for adoption? I do believe a woman shouldnt have to suffer with that pain and incident for life, but the quandry is how to deal with it as to make it a win/win situation.
There is anything should be a limit to abortions. A three strikes kind of law, but more like one or two. Many people I have known substitue money for responsibility in this case. “As long as I can aford an abortion, I dont have to care about what I do”. Wrong attitude. Make men and women become more responsible and realize that consequences exist, and then limit the “get out of jail free cards”. A more responsible society would never have had to debate this issue. They would have policed themselves better and had better “raising”.
So you see, I have my good sides and bad, but as of this I defer this fight to those with unlimited energy and emotional stamina to fight. I simply have better things to do and a life to live, and alot to get over. Bringing it all up again wont help me, and it appears it wont help any of you either.
Cut my losses, regroup the troops, move on to fight another day.
Oh, and since someone brought up the Planned Parenthood FAQ, let’s look at a few things listed there:
Sounds like they offered a choice, and that they do, in fact, offer this choice. Let’s examine further, shall we?
And check this out…
Emphasis mine. Notice it encourages you talking to family members and “your partner,” and says nothing about “tube-tied lesbians” as a good source of guidance.
The FAQ goes on to talk of the prenatal care it helps set up, adoption options it helps set up, and the organization goes to great pains about how it helps people with birth control education and answers questions about STD’s.
Seems to me that Planned Parenthood is not the guilty party here. Maybe you had a particularly bad person as your first line of defense, but it was still your decision.
Many other woman (and men) live with this decision. I’m sorry you cannot. But as I said elsewhere, just because you made a bad choice does not mean it is a bad choice for others, nor should the ability to make that choice be infringed upon.
And if you wish to go to one of those pseudo-Planned Parenthood places, usually operated by a local church, they will tell you misinformation and employ shock tactics (like video clips of aborted fetuses, little kids playing, etc.) to make you feel that abortion is NOT an answer, and will not help you if you decide otherwise.
Seems to me that tactics like this would make it really hard for someone like your wife to overcome guilt, since all it does is reinforce it.
