Whenever someone delivers a baby, I believe the parent(s) should be able to financially take care of that infant. When I see a mother with a number of children walking the street with a stroller, i am aware that so many of them at least here in California depend on the taxpayers to support their children.
And this is where I draw the line…Carrying a baby to term is fine if you can take care of it financially…Why should the populace pay for someone elses prenatal, natal and postnatal care?
Ulllgghh! I assure you, I would NEVER eat an insect!!! (At least knowingly)!! I don’t even step on them.
I get the gist of what you were trying to suggest even though the English could be interpretted as I responded above, and I wholeheartedly disagree with you. I remember responding about this type of topic the night before I left, so I don’t want to repeat it again.
~YT Tiger stays away from insect eating.
You’re absolutely right about the terms being misguided. The correct terms should be pro abortion and pro life.
Because, the choice is made when a girl decides to have sex except in cases of rape and incest. There is quite a bit of responsibility to having sex, especially for a woman, and it should be taught that sex isn’t just fun. It has consequences that one may need to deal with in the future. That it is flaunted so glamourously is a blantant lie to our young people. With sex comes responsibility and education is the way to expend some knowledge. The choice is made when the woman decides to engage in sex. Upon knowingly making this choice, she has then decided she is old enough to take on the responsibility of any of the consequences that come from having sex.
~YT Tiger
Still claiming to just be some pro-choice woman who had an epiphany, huh? You’ve certainly got the language of the pro-lifers down pat.
Care to own up to the many lies you told earlier? How 'bout starting with the five-week embryo? Then do tell us more about Silent Scream.
That’s ridiculous. It’s pro-choice and anti-abortion. Period. Those are the unspun positions, named appropriately. Pro-choice position does not advocate for abortions to happen in every case (or even in any case), and the anti-abortion side is just that: against abortions (with or without minor exceptions).
Encourage? Respect? No… Show what a fetus looks like and teach how it grows and looks at each stage. If one comes to the conclusion the fetus has human characteristics, that is up to the individual person to determine, but at least the education has been provided. Obviously, you are not aware of the numbers of women who have a very difficult time psychologically after having an abortion, which is why I suggest pre and post abortion counseling is imperative. It has nothing to do with the baby’s right to life.
Maybe I didn’t make myself clear, so I’ll say it in basic terms. I stated I ‘always had been pro choice’ and then after realizing what the choice of abortion is, I did a 180 on my thinking. This means I am now Pro Life and anti abortion, Then, I expanded and said, the way to approach the subject is not to make aboritions illegal. The way to approach it is through education. Because, realistically, getting a judicial turn around on abortion just isn’t going to happen, and it’s senseless to pour time, energy and money into a fight to make abortion illegal when the realistic chances of that happening are slim. Also, the ramifications of making abortion illegal would result in girls attempting to give themselves abortions with coat hangers and the like.
Also, since when is teaching about alternatives in pregnanancy meaning ‘handing out adoption agency brochures’? When did I suggest putting a bias on the education to suggest your sarcastic last sentence (I should say the whole paragraph)? Its quite ironic though, that we hand out condoms and teach kids how to put them on, allowing them to practice and give our teenagers a false sense of security that a condom is a surefire solution, leaving the wrong message that condoms are 100% effective against pregnancy, AIDS and STDs.
Is it better for a woman to have an abortion, which she cannot undo, only to learn about what she really did later in her life? I suppose you don’t realize how many women, once they realize what it is they’ve done, are affected by their conscious and their psche for this decision when they’ve made?
Please tell me where I can find these statistics, because everything else proves just the opposite. Many times in cases with teens, it is because of the feeling that a teen will be rejected by her parents and peers if she went through with the pregnancy, or she wasn’t ready for the responsibility. (1 source, though there are several others: http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html) According to the information compiled at the time a mother has an abortion, 93% state ‘social reasons’ for aborting a child. (http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/facts/reasonsabortions.html)
Wherein lies the need for counseling. That’s where the emotional and psychological problems begin to develop. [Again, here is 1 source of many that shows the research and statistics of post abortion affects: http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/ASMF/asmf14.html) A girl I was acquintances with in high school had 6 abortions. 6. She finally had one of her babies, and now realizes what she’s done, and this woman is now really screwed up. Using abortions as birth control is not any type of solution; its a separate issue altogether but it isn’t uncommon.
You show me where these statistics are. A teenager who finds herself pregnant will have to decide what she is going to have to do with that baby 100% of the time. This is why it is imperitive to educate on what it is she is doing and exactly what is happening inside the female body when this is happening. We already hear about victims in the news all the time, its not as if that is hidden from people. Crime could happen to adults as well as children, it is not something we have a choice to control. It’s a consideration all parents make when bringing a child into the world. There are bad people in the world that do horrific things knowingly.
But, the trauma caused to many women who realize what she did to her baby unknowingly; the abortion that can not be reversed and was in her control at one time, is staggeringly high. Of course, by your logic, everyone should stop having babies altogether because a very small percentage of the population are criminals and there is a .0069 % (69 thoussanths of a percent) possibility of being a victim of murder or 4.5% of being a victim of any other crime. This data (not merely statistics) is from the Uniform Crime reports from 1933-1998, using the latest statistics from 1998. Crime has actually come down since then.
Just a nitpick, but you’re incorrect. There was very clearly a comma separating the two clauses. Respectfully, if you’re going to take someone’s grammar to task, be sure you get it right.
I’m still kind of curious about the “I could see the eyes and nose and arms and legs on a 5-week ultrasound” that has been discussed earlier. Pyroto, what is your response?
None, apparently. 
I guess it isn’t a shock anymore when the anti-abortion crowd resorts to lies, but it’s still rather a disappointment.
Actually, I was explaining WHY I did a 180 on my thinking. There is one thing I did notice though. I did mistate myself because I put a 1 week after missing my period instead of the 3 weeks it actually was. The HEART starts beating just 1 week after a woman misses her period, and my thoughts were running on that when I wrote the sentence, of having the ultrasound of my 5 week old fetus. Forgive me for not being perfect like yourself, but I assure you that there was no intention to steer anyone in the wrong direction or use emotional tactics.
But, my fetus WAS 5 weeks old, and the photos in the book are much clearer than anything you posted. I can not help it you can not distinguish that my first paragraph was simply about myself personally and has nothing to do with WINNING a debate. It is an opening statement to establish why I am bringing up this topic, and how being pregnant myself helped me to see the error in my thinking.
There is actually a full color photo which shows much clearer detail in this book I have. But, this is the clearest one I could find online: http://abortiontv.com/Pics/AbortionPictures-FirstTrimester.htm (another 35-42 day old fetus (which is a 7 week old fetus if you count by the day of a woman’s last period, a 5 week old fetus, which is the actual age of the fetus) Yes, a 5 week old child does have the arms, you can clearly see where the eyes nose and mouth are and you DEFINATELY can see the heart beating at 5 weeks on an ultrasound, no matter how blurry the ultrasound may look, the movement and heart can not be missed.
Also, quoted from pregnancy week by week,
I am not trying to emotionally manipulate anyone, and I most certainly have not lied. Its pretty amazing that instead of having a debate, you choose to discredit the poster and accuse them of lying because you’ve misinterpretted with your one examples. If you ever see an actual ultrasound, it is not merely a still photo. You can see the baby moving around, you can see the heartbeat distinctively beating, it is the most prevalent thing in the entire ultrasound aside from the baby swimming around inside of you. If you feel you must not debate with me about anything else, I assure you its of no great loss.
Near as I can tell, you’re now changing your story - correct? It wasn’t five weeks, it was seven (we’ll use the conventional enumeration here, since that’s what everyone’s used to.)
By your own cite, at seven weeks it’s iffy whether a heartbeat will be detected. Limbs are just starting to develop, and the thing is only about a centimeter long.
Whoops, misread your first post. So it was three weeks of gestation, a five week old fetus. So by your cite, which states that a seven-week-old embryo’s heartbeat may be detectable, a five-week-old embryo’s certainly wouldn’t be. Its limbs haven’t started to develop. You didn’t see a nose. Eyes had not developed. It was between 1.5 and 2mm in length. You must have a very active imagination.
You’re still lying. You were lying from your first post; your attempt to use silly emotional manipulation has backfired, since you don’t even have the knowledge of the subject to make up convincing manipulation.
Tell me something. Do you feel that lying is morally wrong? Just curious.
BTW, what’s your response to experts’ demonstration that Silent Scream was altered to create the impression that the fetus was showing responses that it wasn’t actually showing? The speeding-up and slowing-down of the film to make it appear as though the fetus was thrashing are a cynical attempt to use lies to sway people’s opinions. Is that where you got the idea to tell the lies you’ve told and continue to tell in this thread?
Just curious. You know - it’s important to figure out the actual issues in question. I’d love to hear more about why you feel the urge to lie in an attempt to promote your cause.
And, that little anyone didn’t ask to be put in that position.
Well, you are right to an extent. The 79% that either do experience trauma or regret, fairly, there is the 31% that do go on living normal lives without any admitted affects.
Yes, I actually think that should be a part of the education, taught at the same time, without any bias. I know you aren’t suggesting money is more important than human life, but do you know how many young or single mothers who started off worried about this actually have been able to find resources and prosper? I know several single mothers that were very worried about the financial aspects, but somehow made it through. I also donote to organizations that help mothers that need financial assistance. The government in the US has many programs to make sure that the mom and baby have the necessities to live. A very dear friend of mine was on this program.
The fetus is still very tiny. Don’t get me wrong, we don’t start out the size of a newborn.
~YT Tiger
So many cynical people around here, aren’t there? Well, I did play pyroto, and there were a lot of ploys there, but this isn’t pyroto last I checked.
~YT Tiger just a guest… deciding whether or not to officially join and pay money for this. A true revelation… how a guest is treated during a debate.
And, I know I’ve said this before, but since my logic is different than yours you deem it to be faulty, I doubt you will listen. All the functions of a human being are contained within a human embryo. That they are in an early stage of development does not mean there is not every bit of make up in the genes and molecules to have all the functions of a human being.
You get all your information not from psychological studies or the like but from surveys conducted by organizations with an axe to grind. Do you understand anything about how surveys are done? Are you aware of how easy it is to manipulate them? In fact, special care must be taken just to avoid inserting bias. When they’re conducted by a group with a political goal, they simply have no validity as evidence.
I definitely hope you don’t sign up; I don’t appreciate the presence of people who lie constantly. It’s not cynical to come to a logical conclusion based upon the evidence before us, and since none of us can see directly into your head so we have no way to ascertain your intentions except from what you say. So far, you have spent a lot of time telling lies - and it’s still my guess, based upon the content of some of them, that the entire rationale you claim for your feelings is false, and exists to drum up sympathy for your position, which makes the entire thread a lie (with the aforementioned smaller lies simply icing on the cake. The cake of deceit. The cake of treachery. The rich, creamy, buttery cake of lies!) I can’t see into your head to conclusively prove that your claims about who you are are nothing but cynical (lying) manipulation, but considering your constant lying, I can’t really trust your words either.
If you don’t like debating with people who don’t tolerate your lies, please don’t sign up. You should look at other (less lie-filled) threads here before you make a decision, though - some go well, some don’t, but the ones that aren’t filled with a stream of constant lies from one person (i.e. you) are generally much more productive and illustrate the general tenor of the boards slightly better. A debate with a liar is pointless, wouldn’t you say?
In case you’re curious, I’m mentioning your lies again because the only reference you’ve made to the constant lies you’ve been telling and the folks who’ve caught you telling them was the statement I quoted in my last post, which contained many new lies, compounding your previous lies. I’m not sure, again, what you think about lying in general, but clearly you are not above lying to advance your cause. You may do so if you wish, but it’s yet another lie for you to claim that your purpose is “debate” and to post in the debate forum when it’s actually simply to advertise your agenda - which, given its content, might well be called an “agenda of lies.”
Let me try to put this mildly . . . you are full of shit.
WRONG. First of all, I do not regret having one and did not experience ANY trauma. I, like 88% of all women who get abortions, had one in the first trimester, seven weeks to be exact. I felt relief that I wouldn’t have to go through a pregnancy alone, that I could finish college and have a career, that I could one day share a beautiful pregnancy with my husband. I have NO regrets about my decision, none.
Here’s what the experts say about this:
http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/post_abortion_issues.html
(bolding is mine)
Further down the page, the two doctors in the above quote went on to say that the current hate speech from the Pro-Lifers made the situation worse in recent years, making women feel guilty. So, it is people like you who are causing more women to suffer any post-abortion trauma. How’s that feel, knowing you’re the one who’s causing more women to have mental illness?
“Social Reasons”? You have GOT to be kidding. So wanting to put food on the table, clothes on their back, pay for medicine, providing a safe, clean home with two parents . . . that’s “social reasons”? No, that’s called common sense. That’s called taking responsibility. That’s called being a PARENT.
You need to do a little bit of reading. It appears you fell into the trap of the lies and misinformation the Anti-Choice group has fed you. Why don’t you try reading the other side for once.
You have lied, used false sources and information, and overall tried to pull the wool over our eyes. Hasn’t it occurred to you that we’re a pretty diligent and intelligent group of people here? You don’t think we’d check your story? I don’t care if you don’t sign up. You immediately opened up a thread on a very emotional topic then used lies to back up your claim. Don’t complain how you get treated here, you’ve done this to yourself.
PinkMarabou, very nice job citing those things. Interestingly, major psychological disturbances are actually more common after giving birth than having an abortion - post-partum depression (and even psychosis) are not at all uncommon, which is a stark contrast to the experience of women who have abortions.
It’s too bad that a liar like Pyroto here decided to post a pack of lies in order to discuss the subject; it’s a very important issue, both politically and morally. While I’m pro-choice, I understand the importance of discussing the issue and I am fairly sympathetic to the views of those who oppose abortion rights, though I hope they don’t further cement their political power. Pyroto is showing the worst sort of fanaticism here, though, through her willingness to tell lies in order to support her viewpoint (have I mentioned the lying yet?) It could have been a productive discussion (well, as productive as this issue ever is on an internet messageboard) but it was, if you’ll pardon me here, stillborn - due to constant exposure to lies in utero.
Abortion is, of course, one way of dealing with those consequences.
No responsible sex education program teaches that any birth control method is 100% effective, especially a mechanical one like condoms. Mine certainly didn’t. Where are you hearing this?
There is reason to believe, however, that an unwanted child is more likely to be involved in crime, especially on the supply side of the equation.
That doesn’t matter.
You have your work cut out for you in trying to back out of your other lies, but still, could you provide a reputable (non-baised) cite for this number that does not come from an anti-abortion lie mill?
That’d be the understatement of the year.
You’re being held to exactly the same standards as all the paying members.
What a shock. A high number of people who go to a post abortion support group are people who are experiencing emotional problems because of it. That doesn’t mean that a high number of people who have had abortions have problems, just that a high number of people who seek counseling do.
My oh my, what desperate measures you take to keep your ears and eyes from knowing and hearing the truth about what abortion entails. I just wonder how many people believed what you are saying and believe it is me that is spreading a lie here. It will be interesting to read how many people here accept your unproven accusation that this is some type of trick photography, and your discrediting attempt to call me the liar. Then, after so boldly saying this is a hoax and imply that everyone must know this, you go on to insult and degrade more. Please, do share with us the proof you have that the silent scream video is a hoax instead of changing the debate to be about providing education about abortion to me supposedly being a liar. If it is a hoax, then I’ve been sincerely taken in by a hoax, and will put forth an apology, however, this is scientific proof showing a fetus in utero can feel pain, and this isn’t the only source that is out there, surely you are smart enough to realize this? Your deviation tactics, although sly, are transparent. And, to try to resonate that I should be providing proofs right, left and center while you simply state something is a hoax and not provide anything to back it just isn’t how a debate works. You come up with something, you state the sources too. Or, I will simply state that you are a liar, and play your games with you.
I am a proponent of truth, knowledge and education, and my committment to the truth is of paramount importance. In an age where people believe there is no absolute truth, I belive there is. Go ahead, call me a liar for this, it seems to be your MO. I take up stances that people would rather not discuss or be open about, and I expect earnest and difficult discussions about them. Your response, however, shows , in your own words 'how limited some people’s commitment to the truth can be". Your resistance also shows how much you do not want the truth to be known, at all costs. Is there some agenda in your replies? Maybe you just believe that the only way to tackle a debate is to call the one who’s view opposes yours a liar? Its called denial. Science for Unborn Human Life | What the Unborn Child Senses for a more scientific look at the human fetus. (Science for unborn human life)
Just because your views are different than mine does not conclude that I am a liar. The only lies here are the ones you are spurting about supposedly knowing my intentions to use manipulation, telling me I am using emotional appeal and bullying, and the assertations to assault me instead of address the topic. I’m quoting surveys from several different sources, government studies where available, and statistics from proven sources, and showing pictures that you don’t want to acknowledge, see or believe, so I must be the liar. Damn, I wish I had some of those articles from JAMA on the subject (There’s a few articles, but the March 2000 issue has one that relates closest to the topic of pschological affects of abortion), but they aren’t available online unless you pay for them. But, I’m sure you’d find a way to discredit those as well. There are several more sources than the ones I list, these are only a very limited few in the interest of having only limited time to spend here.
Funny, its antics of children to call others the liar when they don’t want the truth to be heard, so they try to downplay the source(s) and the one bringing the truth out. Downplay any mistake they’ve made, and run with it, saying it proves the person is a liar through and through. Go ahead. Discredit me right and left, you can even falsely call me a liar because my views differ from yours, you can ramble and rave at how I am using emotional plea here, but you can’t crush my spirit. You won’t get under my skin. This is a debate, not an accusation and character assault forum, despite the direction you are trying to take the thread. Provide me some proof this is fake. Now, I’ll be the first to admit that I am not perfect, and if there is something I haven’t considered, and you can give me some intelligent information, with more than your own blatherings, but some evidence to back it up, I’ll look at it. However, I won’t even entertain discredidation tactics with a purpose to downgrade and insult to avoid actually addressing the issue.
Wait a minute. Did I ever say EVERY WOMAN is emotionally scarred? Did I EVER say forever? You’re trying to shove things down my throat I never said. I said MANY women, and they are effected. Ask any woman 10 years after having an abortion if she remembers it and if it had any impact on her life psychologically (if someone would even be open to talking about it that is, many women don’t even wish to talk about it ). Now, can you actually provide some statistics, sources, surveys, ANYTHING, that can show that the majority of women who have abortions do NOT have any emotional scarring?