Here’s a recent study that shows not only a lack of “scarring” but positive mental outcome following abortion. “The study shows that women generally are able to make the complex decision to have an abortion without suffering any subsequent regret or negative effects, as ascertained at the 1-year follow-up.” Of course, you may wish to provide any studies showing “scarring” in comparison to the mental health effects experienced by women who went through with unwanted pregnancies under stressful conditions. How many Andrea Yates have been produced by access to legal abortion?
Remember back when you started this thread? When you claimed that your five week embryo had arms, legs, a nose, and a heartbeat, all visible on ultrasound?
Remember what you posted later, the thing that contradicted all of those statements? The thing that illustrated that every one of them is, in fact, a lie? I already discussed those particular lies.
I find it telling that you keep, well, ignoring that. You know, the part where you illustrated all on your own that you were lying. Nice job.
Believe what you want. Find limbs - limbs that haven’t yet begun to develop, in fact - on an ultrasound of a five-week-old embryo. Don’t expect others to believe you, though. Type all you want; you already caught yourself in a lie, the one you started the thread with. You have no credibility, and I have no reason to discuss your lies further.
What I posted was that the fetus was gestational 5 weeks old. It was over 6 1/2 years ago, and I remember what I saw. Now, heaven forbid I should make an error and state the 5th week of pregnancy instead of the 5th week of gestation. You tend to forget those details after so many years. But, you are convinced it was an intended lie, and you can go on believing it, I really don’t care. But, you are wrong because a lie is intentional, this was not intentional. But, believe as you will.
Games… more games. View the link in the previous message. Those are the exact ones that are in the book the obgyn gives you when you become pregnant. And, there is no bias, it is from an education only site with no sides.
[QUOTE=Martha]
It’s telling that the OP hasn’t come back to defend this stance following your first post, WhyNot. I was about to post a similar reaction as I read through the thread this morning, having had an ultrasound scan myself at six weeks. You beat me to it with your ‘BS’ call.
What showed up in my scan was nothing remotely near the OP’s description./QUOTE]
Sorry, I unfortunately do not have that much time to come here everyday. Lucky for you guys, huh?
If you go back to my first post, you will see I also reference the book the obgyn gave me on my first visit. The pictures are in there for varying weeks. They were taken for a Nova presentation on the forming of human life, if I recall. I’ve put a link up to it here . I really wish I could get in here for longer periods of time so I don’t need to rush my posts. I’m seeing my mind thinks ahead of my words, but alas, I’ll keep up as I can. This thread has really grown quick, (and ugly).
Thanks for the kind welcome. All this talk about babies makes me want to have another, but I am not pregnant right now. This was over 6 years ago I was pregnant.
Ack, they’re not idiots, they’re doing their job at arguing and debating the topic, although some do more accusing than debating, but its their right.
Here’s a recent study that shows not only a lack of “scarring” but positive mental outcome following abortion. “The study shows that women generally are able to make the complex decision to have an abortion without suffering any subsequent regret or negative effects, as ascertained at the 1-year follow-up.” Of course, you may wish to provide any studies showing “scarring” in comparison to the mental health effects experienced by women who went through with unwanted pregnancies under stressful conditions. How many Andrea Yates have been produced by access to legal abortion? Haven’t seen that so far.
[/QUOTE]
Henh, a study in Sweden, of course. It is difficult to find non bias information. I’ve already provided a few links to some studies done. This site compiles studies from different sources and has a variety of different ones. There’s about 10 of them, give or take a few. http://www.abortionfacts.com/effects/effects.asp#Mental%20Health
Yes, it is difficult to find “non bias” (sic) information. Especially when the prime “study” cited in your link is based on a survey of women who contacted groups identified as Women Exploited By Abortion, Victims of Choice and Last Harvest Ministries (now there’s a sinister-sounding organization).
The other summary in your link does not provide actual studies, but is an anti-abortion rights advocate’s interpretation of research.
The bottom line is that you summarily dismiss any evidence that conflicts with your views.
You may comment on the hypocrisy of the anti-abortion movement’s emphasizing the emotional harm caused in women who’ve had abortions, while simultaneously attempting to cause as much emotional turmoil and damage as possible via medical misinformation and gore-filled, screeching protests at clinics.
I remember the heart beat and the movement most vividly, and I distictively remember the arms, legs, eyes, etc. I know I mentioned the book with the in utero photographs and there was a reason I brought up the book; it was the combination of seeing the book and seeing my ultrasound that caused the 180. I did not explain myself very well, though, that’s for sure. This is the first time I’m attempting to really discuss this topic in an open forum, but it is something that I wanted to get out, and it is a highly debated topic.
Well, heck. I’m a guest here, until my finances improve, so I don’t suppose I can help or hurt my status among the congniscenti. Thus, I shall establish my credentials: I’m a mother of four. A believer in choice, though not able to choose abortion myself. Utterly irreligious, liberal, and ethical, within my own philosophy.
That said, what’s the difference between any randomly multiplying group of cells within the body? If my uterus happens to be growing a tumor, versus an embryo, why should I treat my tumor any differently than that embryo? If I believe in G-d, then both are pre-ordained outcomes. Am I a sinner if I have that tumor removed? 'Cause G-d intended and designed that growth, too, you know: It couldn’t have happened without the benefit of an omniscient, omnipresent Being, Whose design is not known to us poor mortals. How does one “Choose Life” in that circumstance? “G-d wants me to die of a randomly self-replicating force within my womb.” It makes no sense to me that one is morally bound to protect one unwanted mass of replicating cells (embryo,) versus another (tumor.) What kind of good-natured Creator would ask us poor mortals to make such a narrow determination?
Again, per your own cite, no, you didn’t see that on a fetus 7 weeks along either. You started this thread with a story designed to explain how you’d changed from pro-choice to pro-life. This story is contradicted by what you yourself posted on fetal development. I don’t see why you keep trying to slip past that - your very first post was a bunch of lies. You can claim it was unintentional if you like, but how could you “accidentally” make up seeing arms, legs, a nose, and so on, that couldn’t possibly be visible on an ultrasound?
I’m sorry you feel the need to resort to lies to push your position. I’m sorry you’re having difficulties dealing with the fact that we place a high value on actual truth here and are not fond of lies. I’m sorry you won’t simply own up to what you said, and instead are trying to demonize me for it.
(Why, oh why, am I letting myself get dragged into this morass of moronic asshatery?)
So, Exclaibre, I’m, sensing that you think there’s some lying going on here…
I’m prepared to drop the ultrasound debate and the lies you told around it if you’ll cleanly and clearly simply admit that no eyes, nose, legs or arms are visible on an ultrasound of a (let’s be generous here) fetus at 7 weeks past the mother’s last period. That’s 7 weeks pregnancy, 5 weeks gestation. That’s as clear as I can be about the timing.
You keep showing photos. Show me an **ultrasound **at 7 weeks pregnancy where an untrained eye can see even one of the four: eyes (not orbits - eyes), nose, legs or arms.
There’s one huge assertion you’ve made, Pyroto YT Tiger, that you have yet to even attempted to offer any biased evidence of. This is actally the one single point that would in fact sway me in this “debate”*, so I’d like to address it in the actual spirit of education:
No. It. Isn’t.
**
Mr. 2001** has offered up one highly respected scientific source which claims the “facts” presented in Silent Scream are in error. Let me add a few anecdotal ones, since you’ve shared your anecdotes with us.
Mine actually are true.
Sitting on my lap, chewing on my arm and making typing difficult, is my “newborn” daughter. She’s 18 weeks old today, but was born 17 weeks early. She was born at 23 weeks after my last period, or 21 weeks actual baby-growing time. Got that number? 23 weeks. I have yet to find a report of a baby born earlier who survived (Side note: if anyone knows of one, I’d love a link, 'cause networking with parents of premies this little is a bitch!)
23 weeks means that, in this state, I had a month left to choose an aborbtion. We spent 3 1/2 months in the neonatal intensive care unit with her. She was, thank all the gods, a healthy baby, but the reality is that she was a fetus-on-the-outside for several months. This gave me the awesome and unparalleled opportunity to watch fetal development ex utero for the last half of pregnancy.
One of the things I found most astounding was that she didn’t ever cry during what looked like very painful procedures: blood draws, intubation, suctioning, IV placement, etc. She would wiggle and squirm, but never cried once. The wiggle and squirm were exactly the same wiggle and squirm she would do if I held her hand, wiped her face or kissed her gently on the head. It was an avoidance of contact, period, not an avoidance particular to pain.
I asked the nurses, looked around at other babies and saw one simple fact: before 27 weeks? No crying. After 27 weeks, crying. Sure enough, when Caileigh hit 27 weeks, she began to make a single wail when a painful thing happened. She didn’t cry long, but she made the cry that I recognize to this day as her “pain cry.” If you are a mother indeed, you’ll know the cry I’m talking about.
Movement, even opening and closing of the mouth, is NOT “scientific proof” of pain. My Senstive Plant (Mimosa pudica) moves very rapidly to close it’s leaves when I touch it. Is it feeling pain? A Venus’s Fly-trap (Dionaea muscipula) will snap shut when its hairs are touched. Is it in pain? (Please, please, please, no one bring up The Secret Life of Plants. I’m a hippie granola-crunching herbalist and I don’t buy his “research.”) The pages of an open book on a table will quiver in the breeze. Is it feeling pain? The rational answer to any of these is “I don’t know.” I suppose the sensitive plant, fly-trap or book could be feeling something we might consider “pain” just by looking at the movement.
Elevated heart rate is NOT “scientific proof” of pain. 200 is, indeed, barely elevated for a fetus. Caileigh’s heart rate was regularly between 150-190 while resting, and would jump to 235 when moving around. In fact, her alarm was set to ring if she dipped below 135. Only in the last two weeks has it dropped to a newborn’s state of around 120. I suspect that the elevated fetal heart rate was the result of the fetus’ movement, not pain. A 10% elevation in heart rate can come about while watching an exciting movie, getting bad news, or walking up a flight of stairs. Are these evidence of pain?
So how do we actually tell if something feels pain? We look at the one thing all reporters of pain have in common, and see if it is present in the plants, book or fetus.
That one thing ALL things that report pain - man, woman, child, infant, dog, hippo - have in common is a certain type and pattern of neural connections. A fetus before the age of 27 weeks does not have this (see Mr. 2001’s cite). A premature infant before the age of 27 weeks does not have this. A premature infant before the age of 27 weeks does not display a pain response we would expect to see from an infant in pain. Ergo, it seems logical to me to assume that a fetus or infant before 27 weeks does not, in fact, feel pain. Just because it looks like a little bitty baby does NOT mean it acts or feels like one. I’ve spent months learning that first-hand.
Can you provide any unbiased evidence that what I and, more importantly, The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists have said is untrue? Alternatively, can you provide any evidence that Sweden and The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists are biased sources? (You do know that OB’s **lose **money on every abortion they perform, right? An abortion costs $200, give or take. A pregnancy gains the OB between $2000-$3000.)
*Just to be clear, evidence that fetuses can feel pain will not sway me to become anti-abortion, but I would then crusade for appropriate pain medications to be given to the fetus prior to the procedure. No need to be barbaric and cause pain. Death, I don’t find barbaric at all. If you’re religious, then God’s got it handled. If you’re not, then it’s all just matter and energy to be recycled anyway.
Beautiful post WhyNot. I’m glad to hear your baby is doing fine! And she is beautiful by the way.
Thank you Excalibre, I knew something didn’t seem right about her assertions. I know FIRST HAND that there is no trauma afterwards, only relief. That is, to those of us with no mental issues or who have a loving, supportive network of people. I can imagine someone who is surrounded by the anti-choice crowd would have different results had they shared that information with them.
I don’t have any qualms about sharing my story. I learned from it and will not personally make that choice again, but I don’t think a woman should be forced to carry a child to term if she chooses not to. I personally do not belive in abortions past the first trimester, except in rare cases. But I’m not one to step in place of another person’s desires. It’s their life, they need to live with their decisions, I have my own issues to worry about. To me, it’s not murder. It’s a difficult choice, and a heartbreaking one, but certainly not murder.
You know, something else occured to me that might not be clear in this thread. I DO agree with P YT T that women should be given accurate and complete information while making the decision to have an abortion or not. Informed consent is a good thing, and one which I heartily support.
It’s just very clear to me thar P YT T and her ilk should not be the ones to determine what that information is, since their “facts” are all wrong. Waving around mislabeled posters of late term miscarriages as “Your Baby!” at a clinic, showing Silent Scream, mislabeling photos on a website as cvoming from weeks old abortions instead of much further along, or any other discredited piece of propaganda devoid of scientific support is not informing, they are attempts to intimidate, frightened and emotionally manipulate women at a very vulnerable time.
