Another one who takes no prisoners.
If everyone were gay, abortion wouldn’t be a problem because men and women wouldn’t be fucking like drunken bunnies and having so many “oops” moments with their contraception. You want a kid, you gotta plan for it and make a deal with the opposite sex.
Is it then safe to assume the opposite?
A) Conservatives are strongly against abortion.
B) Conservatives are strongly against people of c…
:eek:
Abortion has nothing to do with zero (or negative) population growth, one way or the other.
There are a lot of countries with extremely restrictive abortion laws which have sub-replacement fertility rates. Six countries in the world currently have an absolute prohibition on abortion with no life of the mother exceptions (i.e. well beyond what I’d support) and three of them have fertility rates below replacement, according to the CIA World Factbook.
Support abortion rights if you want based on concerns about autonomy and liberty: I think those concerns are dumb but they’re also arguments based on moral principle which I can’t really refute. At the factual level, however, abortion rights don’t appear to be either sufficient or necessary to achieve negative population growth.
You should realize that the pushback you were getting was centered around this part of your post. When someone says “make no mistake,” he’s expressing that it’s not a mere matter of opinion but something that applies to everyone.
The primary question, and point of disagreement, about abortion is whether the fetus being aborted counts as a “person.” Until the fetus has a thinking, perceiving mind, it seems to me that the term “person” just doesn’t apply, so I’m completely OK with abortions up through the second trimester.
Past that, for me, it gets ethically more murky about whether abortions should be allowed unless there are medical reasons. But I don’t anticipate that the issue of third-trimester “convenience” abortions is going to be a legal issue while I’m still alive, so my thoughts on that aspect don’t have any applicability to what laws we should consider.
People have said that they want abortions to be rare, but I don’t care, except to say that birth control is a lot less physically traumatic than an abortion. But I’m perfectly OK with abortion rates going up if that helps the women who have them.
Young adults & teenagers do stupid things all the time. Sometimes they make poor choices. I’m not about to force a teenager to give birth against her will, especially when that teenager cannot provide & care for a baby.
So what? Holding a strong opinion doesn’t give anyone the right to determine the moral choices of others, no matter how fervent their belief in their personal mythology (and, in most cases, not having had the experience to be able to judge competently either).
Not to pick on you too much, but I’ve always disliked the use of the word ‘convenience’ in relation to abortion. As if all of the things the pregnant woman will go through, whatever her decisions end up being, could possibly be defined as merely ‘inconvenient.’ Try ‘life-altering in a major way.’
It’s more like choosing between two major life-altering paths.
“Absolute” prohibitions on abortion have little to do with the actual incidence of abortion in any particular area. Such prohibitions only serve to increase the female mortality rate a vastly greater waste of resources than a clump of cells.
Is it your contention that having an abortion is inherently, or most often, “a major life-altering path?” And if so, can we get a cite for that?
I don’t count, “well, otherwise she would have had a baby,” as life altering. I’m asking if your contention is that having an abortion puts most people off the path they were on before the unintended pregnancy happened.
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I am not saying that it is as life-altering as an abortion but, giving the amount of pressure that can be placed upon an individual by the government, society, friends, family and even total strangers, a lot of the time it can add up to quite a bit of unwanted/unneeded stress.
Nope.
I was an unplanned teenaged mother to my son.
Later, I had a micropreemie daughter born on the cusp of viability. We were offered what amounted to an abortion or a c-section. We chose c-section. So I watched a legally abortable fetus grow and develop outside the womb. I know when she began to feel pain, when I believe her soul incarnated, and when she became a person. None of those things happened until what would have been 27-29 weeks of gestation, same as the scientists tell us.
Neither scenario is one that I think that anyone should have to face without consent.
I believe I’m as informed as it’s humanly possible to be on this topic, from medical, ethical, and personal study. So, no, I take no prisoners and suffer no fools.
Then you can provide a citation for that, yes? Because it sounds awfully close to the myths that women who have abortion suffer from regret, Depression, and mental illness as a result.
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i dont have any scientific data, buti can give you the data point of the two abortions i was involved with. it definitely changed their lives (and mine). if for no other reason than now it is no longer a hypothetical thing for us. not a question of what would you do if you found yourself in such a situation.
i cant speak for the ladies, but for me i saw, firsthand that this is not a matter of convenience; it is a truly heartwrenching decision that has far reaching consequences and aftereffects.
it changed me. it changed the way i saw life.
mc
I think that was slightly sarcastic… 
But you had but to ask:
Abortion Risks: A list of major psychological complications related to abortion
Please note that both of those websites are rabidly anti-abortion oriented. Take any info they give out with [del]a grain of salt[/del]a salt-lick.
Perhaps I should have been more clear. Do you have any citations from any sources who aren’t anti-choice?
Because I do. And they overwhelmingly find that women who get abortions - particularly elective first term abortions, which are by far the most common kind - experience no long term regret, Depression, or other negative effects. In fact, they find that they experience greater self-esteem and less Depression than women denied abortions (which I don’t find surprising at all.)
Interestingly, those whose partners accompany them to the clinic experience greater stress than those who are unaccompanied, although this stress is transitory.
I just googled it and it looks like it’s still undecided as to whether women who have abortions have an increased risk of depression, mental illness, drug abuse, etc. I wouldn’t dismiss it as a myth.
Read especially the second link. I don’t care what the motivation of the people posting it have, it certainly appears to be well-supported with data.