I can’t really speak for Europe, but the reasonable Europeans with whom he’s come up in conversation are aware that, same as we don’t necessarily get the rulers we voted for, or the candidates we’d like to get, neither do you. We didn’t believe that you all loved Obama (sometimes he seemed more popular over here than over there), we don’t believe you all love Trump. The whole “electoral college” thing is seen as pretty alien, but in the end it’s just one of the many versions of “winner takes all”. Other stuff which is peculiarly American (such as gerrymandering) is never or pretty much never mentioned outside of colleges offering Degrees in Political Science.
There’s people who grab a brush wider than the Pacific Ocean and use it to paint the whole country, but the same people do the same to any group they can label. Once I detect them I do my best to avoid conversations on anything more serious than the appropriate color for breakfast toast.
If you want to believe it’s murder, fine. But be consistent about it. If it’s murder, then its murder if there was rape or incest, or a danger to the health of the mother. If you can’t get on board with with, then shut up about it being murder.
I think that’s one to challenge the pro-lifers about. Most of them want to make an exception in the cases of incest and rape, but why? If it’s really about murdering a baby, what difference does that make? Use that to point out that it’s really about punishment, because the exceptions are specifically the cases where it wasn’t the woman’s “fault.”
I think they’re as wrong on this issue as any other religious fundamentalist however I will give them props for consistency, they’re also against the death penalty and euthanasia. I know plenty of evangelical anti-abortionists who are delighted by the death penalty, life seems to have a very peculiar set of valuation for them. Fetus<—White Protestant Man<— White Protestant Woman<— White Catholics<— POC Protestants<— Jews<— Heathens (non-judeo christian religions)<— Muslims<— Atheists<— Criminals<— Liberals<— Hillary Clinton seems to be the general order of who should be safeguarded above all else vs. who should literally die in a fire.
Exactly. If you’re willing to make a choice about which cases make abortion acceptable, then you’re simply claiming that your choice is better or more valid than that of the woman herself. If not paternal, that’s at least parental. But you’re still acting in a pro-choice way.
In fairness, there are those who recognize the politics of the matter, and that they can only impose more restrictions on choice by making some compromises, such as allowing it for rape and incest. As long as they can get a *net *savings in “murders”, they can consider it a victory.
I’m related to a woman who, during her third pregnancy, would intentionally drive by a Planned Parenthood in the afternoon so she could get on Facebook and post weepy screeds about having to drive past a place where children are butchered. :rolleyes: Seriously. When not pregnant, she brags about being so blessed to serve in the only roles The Lord intended for a woman (wife and mother). Until her younger sisters had to go to work in a semi-failed attempt at running a family business, she also posted harsh remarks about young women who seek jobs instead of husbands. This world view is compounded by a Christian homeschooled education – the planet is only 6,000 years old, etc. – so I think she truly believes that each human being is individually created by some omnipotent being, who then proceeds to plan out each second of that human’s life. I also think she truly has no concept of what the development of a human fetus actually looks like; she might actually think that the product of an abortion at, say, 8 weeks looks like a teeny, tiny fully-formed baby. I’ve never asked her about that.
Perhaps they would understand if we couched it in rhetoric that they are used to seeing. “If we criminalize abortion than only criminals will perform abortions.” Probably not, but its worth a shot.
Canada had legislation criminalizing all abortions. This was amended in 1969 to allow medically necessary abortions, until 1988, when the legislation was ruled to be unconstitutional. Despite a couple of half-hearted attempts to replace it with something that might pass constitutional muster, Canada has been without any abortion legislation for 30 years.
There has been no cases of “forcing doctors to kill fully formed, viable babies”, and abortion rates have been steadily declining for the past 20 years.
Hey, if the slippery slope argument isn’t allowed, the extremists won’t have any toys at all to play with.
Extremists being people for whom there are only extremes. Either there are zero abortions allowed, or every person, man and woman, is forced into abortions.
Either people are free to be Christians in this nation and force their religion on everyone, or Christians will be hunted down and killed for their beliefs.
And our last “right wing” Prime Minister said, repeatedly and unequivocally, that the abortion debate was decided and closed - he wasn’t re-opening it (and he didn’t).
Yes? Gender solidarity is imaginary; men have killed millions of other men, women are no better inclined to other women. And it’s not like they’d feel any obligation to getting an abortion for themselves.
In order to make their agenda sound more palatable so they can get it into law, then go after the victims of rape and incest anyway. And go after women who have miscarriages as well, and those who need an abortion or they’ll die.
Der Trish? I love you. I am a married man------I’ve been attached for 22 years. You will always be “red shirt” to me.
You helped me understand atheism. I’m not happy about it. But there is no evidence supporting a “loving god”.
Most of all, I remember you arguing with Shodan. You know Shodan can’t understand why you would wish death on his son. He doesn’t even understand that you don’t wish death on his son.
I do understand that you wish death on his child to the extent that his child delivers death to others.
But I raise a glass to you. To all of you deep and troubled thinkers.
How is that a broad brush? Conservatives tend to be the strongest supporters of anti-abortion laws and in doing so call it murder.
Hell, I have a former co-worker/acquaintance who just put a thing on his facebook page yesterday that claimed that totalitarians could learn a thing or two about covering up atrocities from Planned Parenthood. :rolleyes: