Both sides would NOT agree, unless you also define ‘at least a potential person’ to include adults. You made a good strawman here though, which leads one to take t down while not addressing the argument:
The thing is to one side it is a person, not a potential person. And the phrasing potential person is wishy washy nonsense.
I snipped this because just this alone one could may a case for a fertilized ovum to be fully human. But your next part…
With this addition I agree that the rights are different due to circumstances of environment and sovereignty. Add to that children don’t have the same rights as adults , and there is no reason to expect equal rights. But we might talk about universal rights and what they may be. I still think the fetus loses it’s life under universal rights.
While I respect this I also disagree with this. My belief is that the human entity can be defined as a soul, the brain is the interface to interpret the senses of the body and do some processing and storage. Though without the brain the soul would not be interfaced to its body in that respect.
I also consider the heart the physical seat of the soul (the heart is not the soul, but it is the physical manifestation from the soul), so there would be understanding of ‘home’ and ‘Love’, which I would say qualifies it with the basic wiring for humanity and death of the fetus’s body severs this connection.
How is it a strawman? And who in general would disagree that a fetus is a potential person? OK, sure. You can find some nutty malcontent who will insist a human fetus is a actually a potential elephant but I’m afraid that doesn’t count.
Wishy-washy nonsense? How so? Do you assert that a fetus is not a potential person?
BTW, ‘potential persons’ do not include adult humans as they are actual extant persons not merely potential persons.
ETA: I’ve now read your other posts, kanic, and I think I understand now. You’re playing the ‘soul card’.
At what stage of the developing fetus does the soul enter the body/heart/brain? Where does it come from? Where does it go if the fetus is not carried to term?
-My own belief the soul ‘solidifies’ itself inside the body at first breath. This is the end of the time in the womb which is biblically not the same as a uterus. While in the womb the fetus is basically not really yet part of our world.
The soul is a aspect of God and was created a long time ago, or eternal.
If the fetus is not carried to term it goes back to God pain and death free mostly, however by a free will decision of the fetus, it also can chose death (which is just another path, though less peasant but will eventually end up the same place as we all will )
No soul card on this one.
Your strawman is that both sides would agree that a fetus is a potential person. That is incorrect, many would consider a fetus a full person. That is the contention of the right to life side.
I realize you can’t provide evidence for the above but it’s interesting that you side with pro-choice positions despite the obvious complications created by your beliefs.
The rah-rah Christians tell pregnant women that God chose them to be the mother of that baby, so he gave it permission to use her body. Right, God chooses woman to get pregnant via rape, even though he could stop it.
And anti-abortion minister Randy Alcorn states “It is reasonable to expect a person to go through a temporary inconvenience if the only alternative is the death of another person.” Yes, pregnancy is a temporary inconvenience. Of course, every time Alcorn mentions adoption, it’s always to straight married Christian couples.
Going more into this. A potential person would be sperm + egg not combined to many pro-lifers. Once combined it is a person in a certain stage of development, no different then caterpillar/butterfly or tadpole/frog. It’s a different development stage and a different environment, but still human and thus still worthy of human respect.
I used to be very religiously pro life, and have argued that point many times on this board. Since then I believe God has revealed what life is for a fetus, what abortion is like for a fetus (generally nothing more then daddy picking you up from daycare) and also has shown me in scripture what God says about this subject, which is revealed, I believe very clearly, by researching what is the ‘womb’ biblically. A womb is not biblically what we think it is.
The short of it is with all the hub bub we make about abortion, God is sadly laughing as we have nothing at all to do with it, we can’t take a fetal person’s life, God didn’t give us that ability.
The hard part was to realize what a rat-bastard I was, speaking so arrogantly on a topic I didn’t understand. That part was ok it itself, however the part which was really difficult was that what I spoke hurt and condemned women, I even had one in tears repent of murder of her unborn due to the words I spoke.
So you’re saying that one person can turn into two separate people (in the case of identical twins)?
I reject your entire belief system. But if you say that you no longer judge and condemn women for the choices they make about their bodies, I consider that a positive evolution in your behavior/attitude towards women.
Why are we spending so much space on discussing an OP that has this nugget of “logic” in it?
Habit, mostly. Somebody is wrong on the internet.
I imagine maybe they don’t because that could also be used to justify capital punishment, and a lot of pro-choicers are anti-capital punishment. An argument about abortion really shouldn’t lead into an argument about capital punishment, but you know it inevitably will.
It would take away the pro-life argument that the pro-choice side is being unscientific, but it ultimately changes nothing.
The vast majority of pro-lifers are not trying to oppress women but rather find abortion as appealing as modern day slavery and are just as likely to vote for it.
We don’t really know where that line, though. Scientists make a guess based on how we tend to define a person, but we really don’t know. Pro-lifers prefer to air on the side of caution and say, “since we don’t know, it’s best not to guess.” Pro-choicers draw a line in the sand. Both sides make sense. But choicers are branded as baby killers, while lifers are branded as women-haters :rolleyes:
I’d like to know what pro-choicers feel about the violent death of a *wanted *fetus. Say a pregnant woman is mugged, and being hit in the stomach resulted in the fetus dying. How should the mugger be charged? I’d personally like to see them charged with at least manslaughter. But since that fetus isn’t legally deemed a person, how can they? What is the physical difference between a fetus that is wanted and a fetus that isn’t?
No, that’s a lie the anti-abortion movement tries to spread by quoting one of her letters out of context.
Looking at the cellular level of development: I would say that the fertilized egg was both one and the other person at the same time, so both would share a common origin. So just fall into another state of human development.
Looking at the soul level: I would say IDK, but could speculate about it. In the Bible God made a person out of the side (or rib) of another, so it seems possible to split a person into 2 people.
I can see it going either way, one soul which contained enough to divide into 2, or 2 to begin with. I have not really thought about that.