Abortion

Great Debates
1

I’m sure this subject has come up several times in the past, but not since I’ve been visiting with all of you (which I’ve found to be fun, as well as a great learning experience).

That said, let’s get down and dirty. What’s your opinion on abortion? For the record, I’m pro abortion. Not that I like seeing anything killed, but here’s how I see it:

For whatever reason, someone is pregnant, and doesn’t want the baby. Be it a victim of rape, incest, or just plain old stupidity. If this woman is forced to give birth to this baby, she’ll be raising a child she doesn’t want. The child will probably be treated with resentment. Not cared for properly, and not taught right from wrong. A child raised like this, IMHO, has a much higher likelihood of becoming a criminal. Just because of his/her upbringing.

Another point is: how many teens get pregnant, can’t get an abortion, but can’t afford to keep the child. Well, that’s where that big beautiful thing called Welfare comes in. Then the rest of us spend our lives working to put food on the table for that baby, as well as the mother, who can’t work AND afford a baby-sitter. :rolleyes:

Don’t give me the old “put it up for adoption” crap either. Because you know as well as I do that in many cases it doesn’t happen, either the mother gets attached, or is just too damn lazy to put it up, or she finds out really quickly that the rest of the country is going to support her, so why give THAT up??

I think all of the unwanted children in the world should be taken to the houses of those who strongly oppose abortion, and those people can take care of them… :slight_smile:

So c’mon Straight Dopers!! What’s your version of the story??

2

Your argument sounds logical enough.

So what about the pregnant teen who’s too lazy to get the abortion (or to give her the benefit of the doubt, is in some kind of deep denial), so she delivers the baby in the bathroom at her prom, and drowns it in the toilet…ahhhh, one less child for us to have to support!

What about the one who gives it all she’s got, but motherhood is just too much for her so when the baby hits the “terrible twos” she straps it in the carseat and sends the car into a lake. well, we only had to support that one a few years…

At what point does a life have value? When the baby’s body is outside the woman, but the head is still in her birth canal and the doctor pierces it’s skull and sucks it’s brains out, that is no different than waiting till the baby is delivered and killing it.

OK, so you weren’t talking about partial-birth abortion, because it’s very difficult to find people willing to defend such an unnecessary and heinous “procedure”. So where do YOU draw the line? I have a friend whose baby was delivered at 25 weeks (that’s a little more than half-way thru a normal pregnancy) and is doing great now! It is legal in most states to abort a baby at this point. Babies generally have a heartbeat even before the mother KNOWS she’s pregnant.

Please don’t give me all the “her body, her right” stuff. The most devastated victim of abortion is usually the mother–trust me on this one. Yes, I know there are women who will tell you (especially online where they aren’t face to face, sometimes I wonder if they’re really women)–that they have no regrets, they’ve had many abortions and they think it’s just great. I can’t even imagine where they’re coming from because the women I know personally suffer daily from regret, sorrow, grief, guilt, and self-loathing. The only way I’ve seen them overcome and be able to function in their lives is to accept Christ and accept His forgiveness for all their sins.

You asked…:slight_smile:

3

Not to put the kabosh on this but this is one of those topics that has been flogged repeatedly on this board (gun control is another topic that comes to mind). I have found it interesting that while this board is filled with open-minded, well reasoning people (on the whole) the Abortion debate and Gun Control devolve into polarized camps shouting at each other across the fence rather quickly. These are powerful issues and the same vitriol we find on these issues in the world-at-large creep in here as well.

Do a search in the SDMB on Abortion and read the several hundred posts. You can even reply and bump an old thread up if you see fit or start a new thread if you feel some aspect has been neglected. I imagine you’ll find takes from both sides on the questions you posed already out there though.

4

Felicia - “sometimes I wonder if they’re really women” Your tone leads one to assume that you are not all that forgiving or sympathetic to women who say this [regardless of her reasons for saying so] - not a true Christian reaction.

Abortion - it’s legal ergo no debate, or just check out the archives.

5

I’ll throw my $.02 in as usual:

quote:


I think the reaction women have to abortion is pretty heterogenous. I had a girlfriend one time who had an abortion (before she met me) one time back years previously and was still tortured by guilt. More recently I had a female friend tell me she'd had 7 abortions, and she said it like she was telling me she's had seven trips to California.
quote:

~~~Please don't give me all the "her body, her right" stuff.

I never bought this either. The debate is over the child's body, not the mother's. In essence the debate (as I understand it) is does the mother have the right to destroy a completely seperate human body which happens to have the misfortune of dwelling within her own.

quote:

~~~Do a search in the SDMB on Abortion and read the several hundred posts. You can even reply and bump an old thread up if you see fit or start a new thread if you feel some aspect has been neglected.

Personally I'd rather just go ahead and start a new one myself. The posts get kinda ponderous after they reach 50 or so replies.

quote:

~~~Abortion - it's legal ergo no debate, or just check out the archives.

I don't see where this logic comes from. IT didn't USED to be legal yet someone debated THAT. Slavery used to be legal, but fortunately someone debated that too. What do you mean there is no debate?
quote:

~~~Felicia - "sometimes I wonder if they're really women" Your tone leads one to assume that you are not all that forgiving or sympathetic to women who say this [regardless of her reasons for saying so] - not a true Christian reaction.

Let me start by saying I am not Christian myself. But I wonder why it is that other folk harp all over Christians like buzzards onto meat anytime they express something that is the least bit critical. I don't think most Christians claim to be perfect in their outlook on life.
6

I must agree that this a debate which is particullary tired. No offense intended towards you at all Ozone.

I did have to comment on this though

Reminds me of a fake ad I heard from the Radio Pirates (a radio humour group) in Madison. It was for the Post-natal abortion clinic. That one cracked me up.

7

My take…

I have a stronger dislike for abortion than I do for Hanson. I frown upon any girl who goes out, gets knocked up, and a few months later aborts the kid that was created from her own irresponsibility.

HOWEVER… I also realize that people are stupid, and if someone wants to get a baby out of her womb bad enough, she’ll find some way to do it. Desperate times call for desperate measures, after all. So while I dislike the notion of abortion (in general), I’m against outlawing it at all.

8

quote:


Then you have stronger beliefs on the matter than I do, man.
9

My thoughts on abortion:
Is it wrong to kill a fetus? Yes
Is it wrong to force a pregnant woman to carry a fetus for any amount of time against her will? Yes
Is it wrong to force a pregnant woman to give birth against her will? Yes
Is it wrong to bring an unwanted person into this already overcrowded world? Yes
Is it wrong to “sleep around” having unprotected sex and carelessly become pregnant when you have no intention of becoming a mother? Yes
Therefore, abortion is not a question of right and wrong but one of wrong and wrong. What is the right thing to do when confronted by a choice between wrong and wrong? Avoid the question, avoid any situation where the question might arise. If you can’t avoid the issue then you are on your own, I have no advice for you.
Should there be any laws restricting abortion? No, since these laws would force women to carry fetuses and give birth against their will?
Note, not having a law against something is not an endorsement by the gov’t, the public, or any member of the public of anything. There is no law against felching (don’t ask), yet it isn’t endorsed by society? In Roe v. Wade the SC struck down all the laws against abortion as unconstitutional, it did not create any new laws saying it was agood thing.

10

Saruman, I agree with you. While abortion is a terrible procedure, there shouldn’t be a law to prevent it just because some find a stronger wrong in it than others. I don’t like the notion of creating laws that we don’t need, especially when we know that it’s a law that would be readily disobeyed.

And Avalongod… I may have exaggerated, just a tad.

11

Well put, Saruman.

I don’t believe abortion should be used as the primary form of birth control, but I don’t think it should be illegal.

Plus I’m a guy. If abortion is outlawed, it’s not gonna put ME out. Makes me hesitant to take someone else to task on it.

12

Is a fetus life that this can properly be considered “killing” and would you still consider it killing at all stages of pregnancy starting at conception?

Setting aside aside rape, sexual intercourse is a voluntary action and it is common knowledge that pregnancy can result even with birth control. So, by her own actions the woman becomes pregnant (even if that was not the intent). So who is “forcing” anything? Nature if anyone.

Again, who is doing the forcing?

Why is this “wrong?” Is a person’s worth dependent completely on whether or not someone wants them? Some have indeed carried the argument of “being wanted” to the extreme of condoning infanticide.

In fairness, you should also substitute the word “father” for “mother” in the question.

And here’s the crux of the matter. Which wrong is worse? The whole debate boils down to what moral status is assigned to the fetus. The extreme anti-abortion side claims full moral status from conception on. From this assumption, abortion is murder, and thus the life of the fetus is more important than any difficulties the mother must endure. Anagalous to this would be an ill parent or spouse who takes up at least as much time, effort and puts as many constraints on a person as pregnancy. But since the ill person has full moral status, killing them is not considered a better alternative.

From the other extreme, the fetus is given no moral status, and is considered no more than a parasite or tumor. Alternately the fetus, as it is wholy dependent on the mother is considered to have no individual moral status, but its moral status is derived from the mother. From these assumptions, abortions are not wrong at all, and perfectly justified if the mother simply doesn’t want the fetus.

Most people’s views seem to fit in between and either confer moral status to the fetus at a particular stage of pregnancy or assign it a partial moral status in which the mother’s needs may outweigh the fetus’ considerations.

Ok, these are not new points. My reason for stating them is that all other arguments become spurious if a common agreement on the moral status of the fetus cannot be reached. I’ve seen some abortion debates break down to “it is a baby” vs “it’s not a baby.” Nothing can be accomplished if common definitions can’t even be reached and imho arguments are really pointless if both sides are arguing from different assumptions but never address the actual assumptions.

Are there any arguments for legalized abortion where a solution to the proposed need for abortion cannot be met by any other way? I’m referring also to things that could be done, but aren’t, such as reform of adoption laws and increased responsibility on the father.

pinqy

13

No offense taken I assure you. As I’ve only been a member here for about a month, I’ve not seen any of the abortion related threads. Sorry to beat a dead horse, but this thread is already started, so… :slight_smile:

A little different than abortion, don’t you think?

Also a little different than abortion.

pinqy makes a good point. How far do we go in determining what “life” is? Is it immoral to use a condom, because those sperm are alive, and though you’re not aborting a pregnancy, you’re stopping one. Denying a baby a chance to be born, right? Hmmmmm…

How about Welfare? Has that topic been beat to death too? :wink:

14

From the pinqster:

Just to add unnecessary fuel to the fire: Is it immoral to kill cancer cells? How do we know that cancer is not the beginnings of a higher form of life? How arrogant are we to assume that we may freely kill this other form of life to save our own?

And yes, pinqy, we do need to define a common set of terms. But I don’t think that you’re going to get the whole world to ever agree on what these should be.

15

For whatever reason, the abortion debate almost always seems to be the pro-life religious and pro-choice heathens. Personally, I fit into the heathens category, but without a doubt, my feelings are mixed on the subject. What gets my goat, is the confrontational tactics used by some pro-lifers. Confrontation has been discussed on the boards recently, with PETA and their new Unhappy Meal program, and of course the campus preachers.

In a small and hopefully futile attempt at being confrontational, some pro-lifers showed why I will never buy into their ideal. I was dropping somebody off at a hotel and there were some pro-life demonstrators in front of the hotel. Why they were there to begin with, I’ll never know, but they had all the placards with the pictures of aborted fetuses and such. Then I saw a girl, about 14 or 15 I would guess carrying a sign that said “Planned Parenthoods Contracepts Abort”. Excuse me? Contraception does not in any way shape or form equate with abortion.

I can understand that people equate abortion with muder, but to equate contraception with muder is beyond the realm. People have always, and will always have sex for reasons other than procreation. If the pro-lifers really are interested in changing the way people think, then they are going to have to stopped being influenced by religious groups and their agendas. Pills and rubbers or abortion. I know how I would choose there.

16

I apologize deeply if I sounded unsympathetic or unforgiving…I am completely sympathetic and do offer forgiveness (the posts I’m thinking of would be highly offended at the suggestion that they are in need of ANYONE’s forgiveness). I only meant that the forcefulness with which I’ve heard ‘people’ online say that it didn’t bother them, combined with my face-to-face encounters with devastated women seems incongruous. And of course, we know that people do go online incognito and misrepresent themselves. It’s impossible to prove one way or the other.

About it being legal, ergo no debate…would you say the same thing if slavery were still legal? Or if murdering your five-year-old became legal? I believe there is a moral authority higher than the law of our land, namely Almighty God. Please don’t think that means I discount our laws, God instructs me to be under the authorities that He has allowed to rule and I will submit to their rule until and unless it directly contradicts God’s Will. e.g. I know 100s of devout Christians who are vehemently opposed to abortion, but absolutely equally opposed to those who commit murder in protest of it. In fact, despite the passion of many of these people, I don’t know anyone who would so much as throw a stick at an abortionist.

17

The reason they equate Planned Parenthood’s contraception methods with abortion is this: If you believe (as I do) that life begins at conception (i.e. the moment the sperm and egg unite to form a zygote, you have human life-distinct from any other zygote on earth and distinct from any other human on earth: a unique individual), then it follows that any form of “birth control” which causes that life to end is abortion. Rubbers, or condoms, do NOT do this, they PREVENT life from every forming by preventing conception. Now personally, God has called me to a life of trusting HIM for everything, which includes trusting Him to decide the number and timing of my children, after all, I believe He knows everything so why would I think that I know better than He does about this? That aside, most Christians would agree that condoms do not end a life, they simply prevent one from starting. Diaphragms (SP?) are the same thing, or the new “female condom”. On the other hand, birth control pills cause the woman to have a period and empty the uterus whether conception has occurred or not (i.e. a very early abortion, so early that the woman doesn’t know whether conception occurred or not) There are some that prevent the woman from ovulating, thereby preventing conception.

Sorry, you didn’t ask for a reproduction class, but I thought it was important to explain that there is a REASON for people opposing “birth control” vs. contraception.

18

felicia wrote:

Groooooooan … not this little piece of disinformation again…

Would it interest you to know that, in the D&E procedure you call a “partial-birth abortion”, the baby is already dead by the time its legs are out of the birth canal? The physician only sucks the brains out of the already-dead foetus to deflate the head and let it pass the rest of the way through the birth canal more easily.

19

I don’t follow this at all. How did the baby die? Your description is different from every article and set of diagrams I have seen.

Care to describe the “procedure” for us a little more clearly?

20

I love it when the newbies get frisky. What does it matter how the baby dies? Maybe its heart never formed, maybe the mother was in a car accident. Tracer was making the point that the baby is already dead before the brains were removed. IOW, brain removal was not the “cause of death”.