About Persephone and Dex

The BBQ Pit
61

porcupine

I don’t know you or Persephone or the others. Are you are saying that it *is[/] okay to jump to obvious (nasty) conclusions if you don’t know the person in real life? So “Cristy/Seph” should get the benefit of the doubt here because she’s “popular”? This is a message board. The Pit is full of threads of righteous indignation about selfish, slovenly, neglectful people others here read about in the news. Why should responses to Persephone’s OP be any different?

I also like how people post to this thread to get their last remarks in, bringing it to the top of the forum, then say it should be “dropped.”

I’m going back to the Cafe forum.

62

I have one question. What are the new rules? I assume they don’t apply to we little folk directly, but I am curious regardless.

63

From context, the rule would be:

(my bolding)

64

He is, but only in querying exactly why CPS was involved in this case:

In other words, he was asking WTF was going on that you got the authorities called, when children live in squalor elsewhere? Personally, I have to admit I thought much the same thing when I saw the OP. I was stunned. It’s only been through reading the SDMB LJ community and the follow-up posts in the threads about it that I understood more. In this particular case, a little less information (“I went through a really rough patch lately and don’t feel like talking about it, but a mess of Dopers really helped me out”) or a little more information (explaining more fully what happened and why, including that it got worse while her husband was caring for them while she was out, etc.) would have helped a hell of a lot. Maybe Dex shouldn’t have posted like he did, but if he hadn’t, I can just about guarantee you that some other non-mod/admin Doper would have done similarly.

As to why he didn’t just post a more simple “I’m sorry” instead of what he did - well, I can’t say I’m a fan of the post either, but with all the drama going on about this, I can see how someone might feel the need to post something else.

I’m just sad that this misunderstanding, caused by an unclear OP and some hasty follow-up posting IMO, has led to this point. I doubt much of anything could be done to soothe all the hurt feelings involved at the moment.

65

My response to Dex’s original Pit thread:

I can’t think of anything more to say. I feel it’s still true, and very little has changed re: Dex’s unwillingness to accept that he responded with ignorance and with total disregard to fact-checking.

An apology is owed, not to Persephone or Eutychus, but to the entire SDMB community, since Dex’s actions showed a disregard for the charter of the Straight Dope by one who is supposed to enforce said charter.

66

I read that too, but I kind of wanted it spelled out for me, for I am of little brain. (Besides, all rules should be clear.)

67

I don’t have a dog in this fight (thank God), but I see Ed’s point about mods Pitting members.

In order that it is always clear that a mod is expressing his/her own opinion, and not the Official SDMB Position, perhaps Gaudere’s use of the

[moderator hat ON]
flaming
[/moderator hat OFF]

construction would be useful.

Regards,
Shodan

68

Or perhaps they could keep out of the fray altogether. Wouldn’t that make much more sense?

69

I had missed the threads in question until now, so i just spent some time reading over them. I have considerable sympathy for all concerned. I will try to restrict my comments to the implications for the Boards, rather than making any judgements either way about Persephone’s actions. As far as i can see, in terms of Board behaviour, there was nothing wrong with CKDH’s posts.

It seems to me that an important issue in all this is the way in which real life, face-to-face friendships affect SDMB relationships. I have not yet met any other Dopers in real life (AFAIK, anyway), but i like to think that if/when i do, i won’t start to construct my own little hierarchy of people i will and won’t argue with. I know this might be a difficult thing to do, but if we start to expect people to treat one another differently on this Board based upon relationships that they form off the Board, then it’s highly likely that the forums will descend into a bunch of competing cliques.

For me, the most inconsistent thing about the whole wretched scenario was Persephone’s apparent desire to break down this whole board/real-life distinction on one level, and yet maintain it on another. What i mean here is that she (and Eutychus) was apparently pissed at CKDH for just diving in without emailing them to find out the full story first. Well, sorry, but if you really wanted to avoid the whole thing becoming a public meltdown, why not just send personal thankyou emails to people who supported you in your time of need? It’s a bit hypocritical to take the issue from the realm of the private to the public, and then slam someone else for doing exactly the same thing.

This sort of attitude, if carried through to its logical conclusion, could lead to a situation where any flaming of another poster must be presaged by an email to that person just to check that you have your facts rights. This is a message board, and we should not be expected to have to go around using private email messages before responding to one another. Anything you post on this Board about yourself should stand alone and not require outside knowledge. And if you post here without giving all the details, you should be aware that other users’ comments will be based on the details that you do give, and not on some hypothetical other details that they “should” have emailed you about.

This is why i think that techchick and Eutychus’s argument about email is misguided. Eutychus claims that CKDH had two options when he read the other thread. Those options were:

This fails to address option ©, which is: he could have posted based on the information that was on the Boards. Of course, for Eutychus, this is essentially the same as option (b). However, all that can be asked of someone posting here is that they have read the post to which they are responding. It is asinine to expect people to seek email confirmation or clarification, even from people they have met in real life. If you post something on the Boards, then it’s your responsibility to make sure you provide enough information for people to make a proper assessment. That Persephone didn’t do this is her own fault, not CKDH’s. And, if she wasn’t willing to post the complete story (which would be perfectly understandable) she should have posted nothing at all, and relied on personal emails to thank people.

I can’t remember how many threads i’ve seen on this Board where someone will post an OP complaining about something or describing a situation, and a bunch of other people then come in and flame the OP with comments like, “Well, if that’s how it happened, then you got what you deserved” or “Sorry, dude, but you’re in the wrong.” That’s exactly what happened here; the only difference is that some people are asking CKDH to refrain just because he happens to have met the Doper in question. And that, IMHO, sets a worrying precedent.

70

I don’t think so, dantheman, mods and admins are volunteering their time to police the boards, not to give up being regular posters. No solution is perfect, granted, but I think the “mods and admins can’t flame” seems excessive.

I’ve stayed out of this whole thing, but I think the wrong people are upset at this. Totally. Dex didn’t post anything I don’t see flung at all kinds of people on and off the boards; in fact, it is hardly worse than the things people accuse each other of in GD, except there was housecleaning rather than capacity for reason at stake.

Was there a better way the situation could have been handled? Meh. Maybe. I don’t know what “facts” really need to be checked here, I’ve read the threads and I’m still not sure why that original comment was so incredibly lacking. I can see it could obvious be hurtful, and for varied reasons (some of which Euty mention, Persephone mentioned, and techchick “helpfully” hints around). So the first answer is: probably, given hindsight, though no action was taken, IMHO, that was really unbecoming a doper at all. But maybe I don’t read the dope enough. Maybe I don’t have personal stakes involved in this so I see the issue without getting the hair on my neck to stand up.

I’d like to see everyone who feels upset at Dex about this take their own medicine and reserve all their petty judgments (where the rest of the board gets to decide just what is “petty”) until you do all the fact checking, where “fact checking” means “whatever amount of research is required to make you not post on the subject”. When you do that, I’ll consider your judgment of Dex. Otherwise, it was the start of a flaming that was more or less unsuprising but possibly unecessary—much like all comments.

71

I’ve started a new thread Mod Nazis pitting members - stats about the historical frequency of this issue.

72

Etc.

Word, mhendo.

73

I don’t agree with much of what Dex wrote in the original pit thread (I though it was sufficiently plain that Persephone was aware that she had problems that needed attending to) but…

put me down as another person in favor of mods and admins having “clone” user names from which they can post as “members”, leaving their “moderator” or “administrator” user name for board business, if the clone names are very transparently & obviously the same person. A naming convention like adding “SDMB” to the end of the name we already know, that kind of thing.

I don’t see any reason why mods and admins can’t pit people or weigh in on heavily debated hot subjects and I think it’s a shame if they feel they can’t, but they need to do so as board citizens rather than as board officials.

74

That’s right, they’re volunteering. No one is forcing them to give up their serflike status and become one with the Board. It seems more than reasonable to ask them to behave not only as well as everyone else, but better.

This is such a simple concept. How would you like it if the Officer Friendly on your street bullied and pushed people around? There’s not a heck of a lot you can do about it, but if you are rude back - or to anyone - you can be arrested for disorderly conduct.

The reason this doesn’t happen very often is that policemen are held to a particular code; they are there to enforce laws, not flout them. They are there to be Good Examples. Why this cannot be applied to a message board, especially one that considers itself a community, is completely beyond me.

In a sense, Ed agrees with this sentiment. If I conclude correctly - and as Desmostylus pointed out - then now moderators and administrators are not permitted to pit anyone. This is good, not bad. It means that they now must show more restraint than the rest of us.

People are not upset because of what he said but because of who he is and who he represents. It matters not a bit that he and the other administrators and moderators are volunteers. They represent the Reader at all times while they work, even gratis, for this board.

If a moderator on my Board did this, I would act in the same way Ed did. In fact, I would probably revoke their moderator status.

And that’s fair enough. Most people don’t have a personal stake in this. So why are they so mad?

Well, for one thing, we have an administrator who pissed in a MPSIMS thread, of all places.

For another thing, it was directed at someone whom a lot of people have met and like very much.

For a third thing, the comments came off as crass and judgmental.

I can completely understand why someone would not be upset. I can also completely understand why someone would.

If people are judging him for what they think he said, that’s one thing. If people are judging him for what he actually said, that’s another. People aren’t leaping to conclusions here; they are reacting to his actual words. There’s no additional information to wait for. There’s no need to reserve judgment when you are reacting to someone’s post.

75

They shouldn’t for the mere reason that they have power that we do not. They represent the Reader and should, in theory, be paragons of decorum.

If they feel strongly that they need to pit people or jump into a hotly contested debate, then perhaps they could return to being a normal member. Their rank, as it were, is a privilege and a luxury. They are under no obligation at all to have it.

76

I would think the staff makes a number of sacrifices in order to monitor and tend to board issues. It sounds like the issue has already been decided but I think adding to the list of things that must be done, can’t be done, or shouldn’t be done, would possibly make their jobs somewhat undesirable. I agree that the staff should be held to a higher standard but if they are placed in a situation that is too restcrictive, their abilities to express themselves with honest, open, and creative remarks would be impaired.

Controversy drives much of what goes on in the Pit. Dex’s response was emotional and controversial, and imo, inevitable. Somebody was going to start a pit thread. I believe most pit threads are started without running a fact-finding investigation. I suppose the personal relationships involved made it seem in poor taste. I have to admit that I have often jumped to conclusions and shown disapproval without having gone to the trouble of gathering facts… even with people I know well. Regret is a bitch. Sometimes emotion just takes over. We are all human and we all have these weaknesses.

77

Having never met anyone on this board (TIKO) I can only go by what I’ve read in posts. Persephone has a LOT on her plate and as someone that has had dealings with CPS in my past I can honestly say that shes feeling bad enough without someone from here reaming her a new ass. Dex seems like a nice enough guy but IMHO he overstepped his bounds here. I’m glad he’s apologized (or attempted to) but this has taught me something as a newbie. Don’t say ANYTHING about your personal life because you might say something to piss someone off and you’ll get pitted. Thats a shame… Some people have a lot to offer with their life stories and I for one am saddened by this situation because I know someone could learn something from me but they probably will never know because of things like this. It’s a shame…

78

Oh, but once you become a mod or admin, jacksen9, you are able to channel your humanity right out of you and just moderate the boards with swift, infallible, and most importantly quiet justice! :stuck_out_tongue:

dantheman
This is such a simple concept. How would you like it if the Officer Friendly on your street bullied and pushed people around?

Well, because we would have a verb like “police” and would apply it to the extra functions our moderators and administrators take on does not mean I should then consider them as actual “board police” and find their conduct should be appropriate to that at all times. But even if I did, a cop doesn’t have his radio on 24 hours a day; neither does a moderator moderate 24 hours a day. Some of them actually do other stuff! And they should be free to do so. And I don’t see that Dex broke any rules, much like a cop should be free to do what he wants provided he doesn’t break the law.

But that’s your analogy, please remember I don’t like it but I also don’t find it worth arguing over.

In a sense, Ed agrees with this sentiment. If I conclude correctly - and as Desmostylus pointed out - then now moderators and administrators are not permitted to pit anyone.

Well I’m not going to speculate on Ed’s ideas or intentions, or what he does and doesn’t agree with. AFAICT, some new rule was added to avoid a falling out like this. Whether that is because falling outs suck, or because it was Conduct Unbecoming a Moderator, is not my place to guess, but I think his OP would suggest the former, not the latter. In fact, I think the OP is really quite clear as to Ed’s ideas on the matter and leaves little room for interpretation, which I would read as “mods and admins have always been free to be regular posters outside their duties” and now everyone’s panties are wadded and this needs to be adjusted.

I would think that makes someone other than mods and admins fucking childish, dan, that such a thing is necessary… wouldn’t you?

Well, for one thing, we have an administrator who pissed in a MPSIMS thread, of all places.

Of all places? I check MPSIMS like once a month and I see all sorts of things that feel flame-like and whiny. In fact, I see that kind of stuff in all forums. My personal feeling is that there are degrees of such behavior rather than obvious lines that divinely inspired moderaters (who, remember, have now sworn a vow of posting-abstinence to keep themselves clean) can clearly find and demonstrate with nary an argument from us. This means there will always be issues of interpretation.

For another thing, it was directed at someone whom a lot of people have met and like very much.

I’m glad. I have met a few dopers and like them very much as well; some I consider very close friends. And I could expect to be a little upset about such a thing, should such a thing happen to people I knew closely. I don’t believe I indicated that anyone’s reaction was wrong, but I hope I get the sense across that righteous indignity is a little over the top to say the least.

People are not upset because of what he said but because of who he is and who he represents.

He represents himself, unless he is acting in an administrative capacity, in which case he represents the SDMB. It doesn’t take a tarot card deck to divine this.

Is it confusing to you to think that

  1. moderators and admins are people all the time but
  2. only moderating some of the time and
  3. that moderating does not involve flaming or suspected flaming so
  4. when a mod or admin flames, they cannot be doing so from the position of moderation or administration?

If it is so fucking clear that mods and admins as mods and admins must have a higher standard of behavior, then when you see one not acting that way, you should be able to clearly recognize, “Hey, maybe Dex is a real person with real opinions and isn’t acting as an administrator at this particular time!”

::shrug::

For a third thing, the comments came off as crass and judgmental.

Funny, though I think this is an overstatement, I don’t believe he intended to come off any other way. And, added to that, I don’t see why he should have to avoid something like that.

If people are judging him for what they think he said, that’s one thing. If people are judging him for what he actually said, that’s another. People aren’t leaping to conclusions here; they are reacting to his actual words. There’s no additional information to wait for. There’s no need to reserve judgment when you are reacting to someone’s post.

Sorry, I was unclear; I didn’t mean to refer to people to shut up about this incident, but all further things they might care to bitch about.

79

Okay. If they’re not the board police, then what are they? What purpose could they possibly serve, if not to enforce the rules of the message board? But even if I did, a cop doesn’t have his radio on 24 hours a day; neither does a moderator moderate 24 hours a day. Some of them actually do other stuff! And they should be free to do so. And I don’t see that Dex broke any rules, much like a cop should be free to do what he wants provided he doesn’t break the law.

But that’s your analogy, please remember I don’t like it but I also don’t find it worth arguing over.

In a sense, Ed agrees with this sentiment. If I conclude correctly - and as Desmostylus pointed out - then now moderators and administrators are not permitted to pit anyone.

Well I’m not going to speculate on Ed’s ideas or intentions, or what he does and doesn’t agree with. AFAICT, some new rule was added to avoid a falling out like this. Whether that is because falling outs suck, or because it was Conduct Unbecoming a Moderator, is not my place to guess, but I think his OP would suggest the former, not the latter. In fact, I think the OP is really quite clear as to Ed’s ideas on the matter and leaves little room for interpretation, which I would read as “mods and admins have always been free to be regular posters outside their duties” and now everyone’s panties are wadded and this needs to be adjusted.

I would think that makes someone other than mods and admins fucking childish, dan, that such a thing is necessary… wouldn’t you?

Well, for one thing, we have an administrator who pissed in a MPSIMS thread, of all places.

Of all places? I check MPSIMS like once a month and I see all sorts of things that feel flame-like and whiny. In fact, I see that kind of stuff in all forums. My personal feeling is that there are degrees of such behavior rather than obvious lines that divinely inspired moderaters (who, remember, have now sworn a vow of posting-abstinence to keep themselves clean) can clearly find and demonstrate with nary an argument from us. This means there will always be issues of interpretation.

For another thing, it was directed at someone whom a lot of people have met and like very much.

I’m glad. I have met a few dopers and like them very much as well; some I consider very close friends. And I could expect to be a little upset about such a thing, should such a thing happen to people I knew closely. I don’t believe I indicated that anyone’s reaction was wrong, but I hope I get the sense across that righteous indignity is a little over the top to say the least.

People are not upset because of what he said but because of who he is and who he represents.

He represents himself, unless he is acting in an administrative capacity, in which case he represents the SDMB. It doesn’t take a tarot card deck to divine this.

Is it confusing to you to think that

  1. moderators and admins are people all the time but
  2. only moderating some of the time and
  3. that moderating does not involve flaming or suspected flaming so
  4. when a mod or admin flames, they cannot be doing so from the position of moderation or administration?

If it is so fucking clear that mods and admins as mods and admins must have a higher standard of behavior, then when you see one not acting that way, you should be able to clearly recognize, “Hey, maybe Dex is a real person with real opinions and isn’t acting as an administrator at this particular time!”

::shrug::

For a third thing, the comments came off as crass and judgmental.

Funny, though I think this is an overstatement, I don’t believe he intended to come off any other way. And, added to that, I don’t see why he should have to avoid something like that.

If people are judging him for what they think he said, that’s one thing. If people are judging him for what he actually said, that’s another. People aren’t leaping to conclusions here; they are reacting to his actual words. There’s no additional information to wait for. There’s no need to reserve judgment when you are reacting to someone’s post.

Sorry, I was unclear; I didn’t mean to refer to people to shut up about this incident, but all further things they might care to bitch about. **
[/QUOTE]

80

Gee, I’d ask a mod to clean that up for you, dan. but they’re too busy policing threads to make sure no one steps over the line. :stuck_out_tongue: :wink: