About the ending of "Snow Crash"

I just finished re-reading what is probably the best cyberpunk book ever made. If you have not read it yet, close this thread and pick up a copy.

The ending did leave me a little confused. What ever happened to Ravens nuke? I was under the impression that Uncle Enzo killed Raven at the last minute so there should be a mushroom cloud somewhere, but the whole issue about the nuke was just dropped. It is like Stephenson needed to fill a hole in the plot early on, then just forgot the thing ever existed.

Also, was the elderly teacher in The Diamond Age supposed to be Y.T?

My guess was that Raven just got his ass kicked by Uncle Enzo, no death involved.

I assumed Raven didn’t die, because the nuke didn’t go.

Which elderly teacher in the Diamond Age? I remember thinking… was that Y.T., but I never investigated further.

Snow Crash didn’t end so much as just stop. It’s incredible to me that as verbose a writer as Stephenson can’t write a proper deneument. Is a five-page epilogue too much to ask for?

  1. Hiro killed Raven in the Metaverse but not in real life. The allegorical “nuke” that Raven set off in the Metaverse at the concert had been safely neutralized by Hiro ahead of time.

  2. We last saw Raven when Uncle Enzo blasted him with a sonic wave from Y.T.'s replacement board. It is implied that Raven got to the airport in a pizza delivery car. A pizza delivery car is seen leaving the airport at the end. Ergo, Raven lived. He did not appear to have his nuke in his vicinity during the final pages.

  3. The real reason you can’t kill Raven is because Y.T. would loose her love interest and he is the “evil twin” of Hiro. He completed a stable triangle. Hiro and Y.T. were not a couple prospect.

  4. Fark had a link to a story the other day about shipping containers being used as cheap housing. They failed to add the obvious tag “Hiro Protaganist unavailable for comment.”

  5. “Just ending” a novel is the Modern Way of doing things in Science Fiction. Of course, most of us hate it, but get used to it. Just hope that another “paradigm” (erp, pardon me) for SF writing comes along soon.

I’ve read Snow Crash twice and the first part (up to where Hiro nose-dives his car into the pool) several times. That is my favorite of the cyberpunk books I’ve read. I’m surprised (and disappointed) someone hasn’t made it into a movie.

I’ve also read The Diamond Age, which seemed to be a continuation of some of the ideas explored in Snow Crash. I’d have to go back and find it to be sure, but I was also under the impression that the teacher was Y.T., or based on that character.

Vlad/Igor

I’ve read a lot of Neal Stephenson and I agree completely with Alessan. The guy is second-to-none when it comes to making unique worlds and unique characters (Hiro Protagonist is the best name EVAR for a main character). But the man can’t end a book to save his life. He’s even worse than Crichton, and in my book, that’s saying a helluva lot.

Cryptonomicon just tapers off slowly without any real conclusions or even

any real tie-togethers of the two main temporal plot lines – they never know that their fathers and grandfathers cooperated

I wouldn’t read too much into the Snow Crash or Diamond Age endings. Just accept the other 90% of the book as amongst the most unique and creative sci-fi/cyberpunk books written.

I am now reading his new series (The Baroque Cycle). Quicksilver was around 900 pages; The Confusion is around the same. There is one more book to go and I expect he will give it another 900. For those that don’t know, this is a prequel of Cryptonomicon, if by prequel you can talk about events that happened in the late 1600s. Same families, same character archetypes, etc. Again, he has brilliantly created characters and worked in true people into very interesting plot lines – Newton, Leibniz, Kings of England, France, Holland, and Electors of parts of Germany. He has not resolved even one plot line yet and I have no reason to expect that with 900 or so left, he will be able to do it any better than he has done it in any other book. So I read for the millieus and the characters and I don’t focus on reaching some kind of ending…

And to respond to the OP:

No ways, doesn’t even hold a candle to Neuromancer. Snow Crash was really good, but at heart it was a parody of the cyberpunk genre, something that William Gibson invented from whole cloth. William Gibson writes better, has more unique ideas (although I did love Stephenson’s franchised countries, robot dogs, and nanotech), and can actually end a story (though Stephenson writes better characters).

Stephenson’s endings are all pretty similar. I read him for worldbuilding and characterization, but he’s no good at tying up his plots. The ending of most of his books can’t even be called a denoument, because there’s not a sufficient climax–just the anticipation of one.

two points:

  1. Minor nit: “invented from whole cloth” does NOT mean what you want it to here. It seems you want it to mean “he created it all by himself.” What that phrase means is “it was completely fabricated - it was a lie from top to bottom” - here is a link to Random House’s old Word of the Day which explains it.

  2. William Gibson is just as guilty of faults with his writing as Stephenson, but in different ways. Gibson has brilliant ideas and can create a sense of noir tension better that most. Stephenson has brilliant ideas and a wide-ranging intellect - but as many here state, he is more of a shaggy-dog story teller who couldn’t find an ending with both hands and flashlight. His world in Snow Crash might be influenced by Gibson, and therefore it is perhaps harder to say “he created it all by himself” but it is a compelling, prescient depiction of what ended up being the internet world - his depiction has turned out to be far more accurate to date than Gibsons (the Sims, anyone?). So while Gibson’s ideas may be unique, it feels like you are dismissing Stephenson’s because they have become our reality, which to me is a far more powerful vote for them being compelling.

Oh, sorry, I don’t mention Gibson’s faults - for the record, his character’s are two dimensional, he can’t write compelling dialogue (especially about relationships or interactions between characters - everyone of his characters feels like they are walking, alone, down an alleyway. In the dark. In the rain.) Also, his books can’t decide what they want to be - basic thriller that happens to be set in the future or philosophical polemic about the human condition in the modern age. While I am normally excited at the thought of a book accomplishing more than one thing, his books don’t quite succeed at either. Pattern Recognition sets up this fascinating thriller that completely peters out at the end, but philosophically is not all that compelling except in its ruminations on consumerism in the modern age. It ain’t that deep.

Gibson also suffers from unsatisfactorily resolved plot points. It’s not deus ex machina so much as “oh, by the way. The thing that drove all the action up to 3/4 in? Eh. Taken care of.” I agree that many of Gibson’s characters are 2D, though I still think Count Zero is quite fine. From Idoru on they’re okay reads but I can live without them.

Minor point of clarification: Gibson was expressly not trying to be prophetic with the cyberspace world in Neuromancer. At an author’s talk I attended a few years ago, he said that at the time, he knew essentially nothing about computers and was just making stuff up. Furthermore, he was surprised at how popular his ideas about cyberspace were, because he was trying to ironic rather than prophetic.

I always figured that since Raven was just back from the Raft, he hadn’t had time to find his nuke and hook it up. It’s not something you really want around when you’re doing a lot of high mobility fighting…which makes me wonder where Raven’s nuke was during the fight among the bamboo. He definitely had it with him (since the Enforcers weren’t trying to kill him), but lugging around a nuclear warhead, even a small one, can’t have been much fun for him.

Thanks for the nit, WordMan (really, I hate using phrases out of context).

I agree with you about your analysis of Gibson. I just think that his shortcomings are less damning than Stephenson’s – not being able to tie up a plot in such a plot-driven genre like science fiction leaves me wanting to hurl his books across the room. Although both Stephenson and Gibson have tried to move the focus from plots to building characters and building future worlds, it is still primarily in plots (at least for me). It is relatively easy to invent a world or to build a setting, and a lot of authors can do this well but can’t write themselves out of a paper bag coughNivenHeinleinFarmercough.

I was responding to the phrase “best cyberpunk book ever” from the OP. It is of course a matter of opinion, but the noir cyberpunk invented in Neuromancer was such a visionary leap. It is just MHO that a book which is, at heart, a parody of a genre can’t best the original. That is not to say it isn’t visionary, although predicting something like “The Sims” doesn’t make it more prescient than Neuromancer.

And Pattern Recognition – I liked it a lot, actually. It did peter out, but at least the plot came to a reasonable, logical conclusion. It wasn’t just abandoned, a la Stephenson. I liked his noir jet lag feel, I liked his bizarre main character (a coolhunter with a pathological reaction to certain trademarks and advertising), I liked the whole commentary on Internet fan sites and fandom with its over-analysis and obsessiveness and its ability to spread memes quickly. It wasn’t a cyberpunk or a real sci-fi book, though. I also disagree on whether it was a commentary on crass commercialism. I think commercialism was just accepted in the book as a tool for interaction and communication, not as something to be avoided. It was much more a commentary on ideas and how ideas spread: advertising was one channel in which this spread of ideas was explored. Internet fansites was another; art was another.

edwino - thanks, and your last post makes a lot of sense, both on Stephenson and Gibson.

A few top-of-mind thoughts:

  1. I guess, with Gibson, I find myself somewhat subliminally irked at the gravity of his writing - hence, my small mock in my last post (“she walked down the alley. alone. in the rain.”) which is normally used to mock Hemingway. The thing about Hemingway - when he was writing well (his misses are huge) - that gravity took the underlying points of his writing - about relationships, about war, about sense of self in relationships, war and life - to whole new levels. That hardboiled style enabled us - in a new and innovative shorthand - to fill in our blanks and complete the sense of the lead character in our minds, bonding us to the character.

The biggest problem with that style is that, if just used as a style, with no underlying important points to make, it becomes an obvious mockery. It’s the difference between, say, Jackson Pollack’s splatter art and someone designing splatter gift-wrap paper - one says something profound (to me) the other looks pretty in turquoise and pink (or not, as the case may be). The question, therefore, is: Is Gibson a great practitioner of the hardboiled style, who sometimes gets it tied to a meaningful set of points - like Neuromancer and some of Burning Chrome - or is he just someone who can speak in that voice, but has little to say, IMHO, like in Pattern Recognition. When does fashion photography cross over and become art? I ask because it feels like PR is more fashion photography - written in a voice that requires strong technical skills to do, and flirts with using art-style language to make points, but ultimately is more of a showcase for stuff than an artistic statement.

I know, I know - if there was ever a time to invoke Justice Stewart’s definition of obscenity, this is it (“I can’t define it, but I know it when I see it.”). I absolutely respect a person’s right to look at Gibson’s work and PR in specific as more than “fashion photography.” This is just my opinion.

As for Stephenson - well, see, I may be tying myself up in conversational knots, but here goes: I have a few close friends where the whole basis of our friendship is the wide-ranging nature of our conversations. They translate Latin, when to the Monterery Pop Festival, hang out with senior U.N. officials, produce records for the Cure and David Byrne - I am pleased to report they are an eclectic bunch. The point is that we - when the stars are in alignment, we have time and plenty of wine - embark on these meandering discussions about all sorts of stuff. We drop topics, conclude a minor few, mix n’ match - the whole bit. I read Stephenson to get that same feeling - a big, brawling commentary that moves from topic to topic with intelligence and, just as important, fun. I am kinda amazed that he keeps his plots and characters as coherent as he does. I in no way read his stuff the way I read, say, hard sci-fi, which is all about a credible work that is populated with (often only 2 dimensional, unfortunately) characters who are put in motion to comment on our world in a metaphorical way.

Stephenson’s stuff is in a funny place - if he was more directed in clarifying his philosophical points, it would be considered literature (and of course, more than most any other “sci-fi” author - along with Gibson - his stuff is commented on by lit crits), and if it was more plot-driven, would be classic hard sci-fi. If it was less tied to hard-fact interesting stuff, it would be more like those rambling authors who drive me nuts, like Tom Robbins (“Even Cowgirls get the Blues,” “Jitterbug Perfume”) or even Thomas Pynchon - the king of actively working post modern lit.

Bottom line? I personally find Stephenson satisfying given what I am looking to get out of his work - a ton of substance told in a rollicking, fun and engaging way, whereas Gibson I find to be style over substance.

My $.02. YMMV.

Like I said in my first post, “just ending” a novel is a property of the sub-genre and not of just Stephenson. A lot of people write that way.

Stephenson has used: the teacher, the Librarian, and Enoch Root in various books as the “Well, Tommy, as well all know, water is made up of …” exposition characters. Those characters tie together best. (But also make up the most boring passages of his books. There’s exposition and then there’s exposition that goes on and on.)

As to the length of his novels. “Cryptonomicon” was too short by 300-400 pages. But the Baroque Cycle should be 1 book of <800 pages. It’s gone to his head, but not in a useful way.

As to the Gibson hijack. Gave up after part-way into a fourth book. “Count Zero” was reasonable. The only interesting character was 3Jane and that didn’t go anywhere worthwhile. OTOH, it was creepy/familiar the first time I ran Mosaic.

WordMan

If we continue this hijack, perhaps a new thread would be warranted. I am obviously not a lit critic, but I know what I like, and I see your points (I never realized the parallel of Gibson and Hemingway, and yes, I think that does make quite a bit of sense). My feeling is that he likes a certain character paradigm – the dark, introspective type who feels disconnected to the world around him or her and acts as a somewhat dispassionate observer, maybe along the lines of Camus’s The Stranger. Like you say, I don’t know if it is a limitation that he doesn’t write happy, flowery, emotional characters or if it is a preference.

On your criticism of Stephenson, the name that popped into my head immediately was Pynchon, not because of the rambling of it, but because after Gravity’s Rainbow, I felt as though I could have a conversation on the V-2, Ouspensky and early 20th century psychic theory, Pavlov and his life, film making, the German occupation of South West Africa and the plight of the Herreros, jazz music, and World War II London. After 2 books of the Baroque Cycle, I know my members of the Houses of Orange, Bourbon, Stewart, and Hanover and many of their relations, some stuff about economic policies of the 17th century, the Reformation, the Inquisition, sword making, silver mining, the practices of the Barbary Pirates, and some of the wars of 17th and 18th century Europe.

In the end, I see them as both style and not substance. I find that true of most of the writers who have come out of sci-fi, and I accept that and keep reading sci-fi. Apart from Bradbury and Asimov (and not including Orwell or Huxley), no sci-fi writer that I can think of can really string all of the elements together to actually produce substance: characters, plot, settings, and message. Gibson and Stephenson certainly are a step above most. Card is with them, though he gets preachy, preachy, preachy. In the end, that’s why I come down against Stephenson worse than Gibson. At least Gibson, for his limitations, can box it up and try to put it into a philosophical context. Stephenson can’t.

I have reason to believe Gibson was not alone in inventing the Cyberpunk genre, and I also do not think he was the first, properly speaking. I mention it because there are works that look suspiciously like Cyberpunk but that predate Gibson’s first novel. Specifically, in my opinion: Scott’s Blade Runner (the film, 1982), John Brunner’s awesome The Shockwave Rider (1975!!!), and as herald of this movement I would consider Anthony Burgess for A Clockwork Orange (1961).

We shouldn’t forget Bruce Sterling, whose Shaper/Mechanist stories date back to the late '70s. Although I would say his first real and definite work of Cyberpunk is not until 1985 with Schismatrix, his Shaper/Mechanist stories definitely have a certain whiff of cyberpunk. Also there several similarities between Sterling and Gibson, right down to the protagonist looking at someone’s knuckles and realizing that the person he is looking at is a lot older than at first seems apparent (Schismatrix and Neuromancer both have this segment and a few other uncanny similarities).

By the way, the term “Cyberpunk” was coined by Bruce Bethke in 1980 (Neuromancer is from 1984).

In the end there are several more writers who contributed to what would eventually become Cyberpunk, though I agree that Gibson is one of the giants. Particularly, no one simultaneously mocks and worships mass consumerism the way he does. And certainly no one has done more to coalesce cyberpunk into its own style than the Neuromancer novels and the various related short stories [/hijack]

I figured that Snow Crash ended with Raven killing Uncle Enzo and getting away. I thought that, even after shattering Raven’s glass knives with the sonic shocker on the skateboard, there is no way a wounded and elderly Uncle Enzo could have taken on a lethal 7-foot mutant in his prime. But I hope to be proved wrong, and that Raven is in fact prisoner of Enzo and the Mafia until they figure what to do about the nuke (as soon as they figure it out they will kill him without mercy, of course).

Abe - thanks for the overview of “cyberpunk” and its origins - informative. I have also heard Samuel Delaney’s Dhalgren(sp?) also mentioned as a precursor.

edwino - well, so far, no one has complained, so we’re probably keeping the darn thread alive! Bottom line, I hear what you are saying and agree that as a novelist, Gibson is more accomplished at his technical craft than Stepenson which results in books that have better-rendered beginnings, middles and ends. The fact that Gibson can also populate them with interesting plots and ideas - and interesting, if not well-developed characters - is that much more of a bonus.

Stephenson has, as I have mentioned in previous posts, what seems (to me) a more roving intellect. His plots serve his meandering and when they don’t, he’s okay with that. Leads to a less well-structured book, and I am okay with that. I can also very much understand why someone would not be okay with that.

There - I think you and are in reasonable agreeement, aren’t we? :slight_smile: