I was thinking more of Romulus and Remus.
Prove you are.
Oh. Okay. Well in that case:
What he said.
You seem to be asking why an arbitrary line is drawn. And the answer is because, as a society, we agreed on one.
Yesterday I was just as capable of driving a car as I am today, but now that I’m sixteen it is allowed. Yesterday I was the same person I am today but now I’m old enough to marry, join the army, vote.
You’re right, I was the same person yesterday I was today. But as a society we have agreed that people can’t drive till they are 16, marry, join the navy whatever.
This seems akin to the argument a pedophile makes about having sex with children. 15 1/2 years of age illegal, 16 yrs okay. And it is arbitrary. But it’s better than throwing the doors wide open and saying sleep with whoever you like no matter the age. Marry 13 yr olds, send 11 yr olds to war, end your child’s life prebirth or after.
The answer is, as a society we have agreed on these norms, we find them acceptable ways of keeping the strong from exploiting the weak. There is somewhere a 14yr old mature enough to have sex, a 12yr old who’s a competent driver, a 15yr old ready for marriage. But that doesn’t change anything since as a society we’ve decided it’s better to protect the many, who are not ready for these things, at the cost of the few who may be.
This is a cheap debating tactic. I’m not arguing that side of the position.
So the ability to have a chat is what makes someone a person?
I was exaggerating. My point is that it’s arbitrary, so birth is just as good as the 9 months before it
I’m surprised this statement hasn’t been directly challenged yet. There are tremendous changes in the circulatory system when a baby is born, mainly to switch from using the umbilical cord to using the lungs:
I’ll admit I haven’t read all the posts in this thread but here’s my response to the OP.
There’s biblical authority. The Bible repeatedly equates breath with life. A baby doesn’t draw breath until it is born and that’s one point at which you can say life begins.
Stepping beyond the metaphor, this points to another major distinction. Prior to birth, a baby is dependant on its mother for its breath (and other life support). The mother and the child are connected as a single unit. When a decision is made for one or the other, that decison is made for both. Birth represents the moment when they become two seperate entities and you can treat them individually.
Except that it isn’t arbitrary. It’s very specific and demonstrable.
Brain development in children.
Much of neurological development has already occurred before birth.
I’m quite aware the Spartans did it, but that is not related to the naming practices of Judaism and Christianity.
Viability. Sadly, that’s not a bright line itself, but regardless of brain activity I don’t think an organism that isn’t self supporting counts as a life.
except, not. there’s little definitiveness as to exactly when impregnation occurred, when the zygote got implanted into the uterine wall, etc. etc.
birth is not arbitrary at all. it’s a discreet occurrence that is irrefutable and simple to delineate.
So is one’s 12th birthday.
what is that referring to, again?
My situation is two healthy kids one of which is now taking a nap after finishing a 3-day long project making a 3-foot tall giraffe out of household items. Thanks for your concern (said without a drop of sarcasm). Which is not to mean that I dodged the bullet and let the others behind me worry about this.
I know you are not. Here we are in good will. Where to draw the line is the whole point of this thread. I don’t have an answer. I hope to come out of it close to having one. As it stands it is a big fat line between the third trimester and 2 years of age. Not terribly useful for practical purposes.
Thank you for “getting” the point of the thread.
Precisely the point. This “apperification” is called birth when the baby is viable.
The more important point, and the one where my question hinges is whether this baby would know he is dying if left unassisted. Someone mentioned Stephen Hawking, if you unplugged him, he would know he is dying. There would be existential anguish over it, no matter how he feels about it. Would the baby know he is dying? And I don’t mean in the way mice and turtles deal with death. Crippled, animals struggle trying to do what they need to do until they just cannot and then lie there and carry on doing what little they can (breathing at least) until they die. At what point does a baby just stop to function at death and becomes aware of the fact that his existence is coming to an end?
Is blood circulation what makes us human? All animals do that.
I gather that the OP is one of those posts you didn’t read.
I’m challenging the idea that nothing significant physically happens in a baby at birth.
Steven Wright’s diary from when he was an infant:
I read what you said. That doesn’t mean I have to agree with what you said. Either your conclusions or your rules.
If you ask people what their beliefs are on a subject that’s generally based on law and religion, you’re going to get answers that reference law and religion. Deal with it.