Who is telling you that you must feel ancestral pride?
Can you not see how telling someone they must feel pride is just as stupid as telling someone they shouldn’t feel pride?
That’s what happens when we urge people to feel pride by association.
American patriotism can be heavy-handed in the way you’re talking about, I’ll give you that. People do make a deal out of “loving” America to a harmful degree. But this is a problem separate from simply having pride in America. A person can be patriotic without being a nationalist. A person can be proud to be American but also hate the things that America has done. Having “American pride” isn’t the problem. The problem is using pride as a weapon.
Anything can be used as a weapon. But that doesn’t mean everything is a weapon.
That is my point, when you spread the idea of people feeling pride in their ancestors then everyone will feel compelled to do it. When someone expressed their pride in some achievement of their grandparent what is everyone else to do? They are unlikely to say or think their own ancestors did nothing to be proud of, they’ll want to feel equally proud. I think it provides an umbrella of pride that anyone can use without any basis other than thinking they should have their rightful share of pride just like everyone else. It reminds me of the ‘self esteem’ thing somewhat.
Of course this will not change, it’s been ingrained in social structure forever.
Indeed. In this case I think pride has been used as a weapon in the south.
Yeah, but that ‘best cuisine and best music‘ were created by the black people they fought to own as property. Now they want to claim their ‘pride’ is from these creations?
I was just reminded of a quote from Omar El Akkad’s novel American War - a dystopian future novel of the next Civil War.
“In the South there is no future, only three kinds of past - the distant past of heritage, the recent past of experience and the past-in-waiting”
While looking for that quote, I found this article on the book with a few other quotes including “In this part of the world, right and wrong ain’t even about right and wrong. It’s about what you do for your own.”
elbows: “…that ‘best cuisine and best music‘ were created by the black people they fought to own as property.”
There are numerous elements of traditional southern cooking that were not “created by black people”, but derived from other sources such as native Americans, Cajuns and other European immigrants.
As for music, have you never heard of country and bluegrass, as well as contributions to rock n’ roll from “white culture”?
I’m a lover of macaroni and cheese and appreciate that it is a staple of soul food, but it has European roots and it would be inaccurate to give black folks all the credit for it.
The art of frying chicken was practiced in west Africa. But it was also practiced among the Scotch-Irish.
The wonder of quick bread (unleavened bread like biscuits and cornbread) were also not invented by black folks. Native Americans and Europeans get credit for that. Native Americans get credit for hominy, where we get the manna also known as grits (I do give black folks credit for shrimp and grits, though).
So southern cuisine is super fusion-y. And it is also quite variable. Just look at the different styles of barbecue. Lovers of tomato-based BBQ have a very rich, proud heritage of deliciosity. The people of the vinegar-based BBQ land can take pride in their creative ways of eating slaw.
As you have noticed, some people seem invested in having it declared a fact that there must be absolutely nothing celebrated positively and identified as “Southern” – I think many would just prefer that the general regional identity simply evaporated in toto not just the racism.
I have never felt pride in, well, much of anything. That’s because, firstly, I was raised in the midwest (perhaps ultimately Calvinist) tradition of never ever bragging about anything. Secondly, I’m the kind of person who sees the shadow side first, and light side second if at all.
I never could figure out what people really felt when they said they had pride in something. I can take satisfaction in a job well done. I can feel loving appreciation and gratitude for the admirable things my near and dear ones are and do. I am not sure that is pride. Maybe it is.
What I do see is that pride in one’s tribe or ancestry or country always seems to have an element of resistance, if not pugnaciousness, in it. Proud in despite. “They don’t understand us” is the rallying cry of pride. Standing proud in the face of whatever – tragedy, war, oppression, contempt, danger, ignominy. Even the wealthy proud of their wealth are aware that others hate them for having it.
Once someone has a stance of defensiveness (don’t mess with Texas), the ability to see the shadow side evaporates. And that’s why I really don’t like the South. That, and the humidity.
Yes, and it is hard for me to not feel that there’s some major derpness involved.
“Durr, why do hoomans have pride in things they have nothing to do with?”
They ask this question in one breath and in another cheer when their favorite sports team win the big championship.
I just watched a documentary about Chinese Americans who have lived in the Mississippi Delta for multiple generations, establishing their own folkways. The folks who were interviewed were clearly proud of their unique culture and its influence on the world around it. Should they be hanging their heads down in shame along with the descendents of planters, overseers, and sharecroppers? Or can it be OK to have pride as long as a person doesn’t get carried away?
Feeling-shaming is shitty and doesn’t accomplish anything. Telling a Southern they are wrong to feel proud isn’t going to make them stop being proud. It’s only going to make them feel like they have even more reason to be proud. This goes for anyone. Tell me I’m wrong to feel a certain way, and I’m just going to feel that way even more.
We’ve given them 150 years to lose the racism. Since they obviously can’t or won’t separate it. I don’t mind chucking the whole “Southern” thing in the trash heap.
I didn’t say the notion that there being something wrong with taking pride in something you didn’t do is misguided - though I am quite proud of my Cajun ancestry. The point is, if I shouldn’t take credit for what my ancestors did (good or bad), then I also can’t be asked to take responsibility for what they did (good or bad). The only part I can control is what I do going forward.
Native cooking runs into the same problem that it’s not invented by the demographic that wears Southern Pride shirts, and there isn’t a whole lot of that. Direct imports from Europe are from Europe’s glorious past, not the South’s glorious past. It seems that the ‘numerous elements’ don’t seem to actually get listed, and are pretty scant overall.
Rock’n’roll was created by black people, so again ‘Southern Pride’ doesn’t get to take credit for it as the people marching around with ‘Southern Pride’ very distinctly are not black. Also, it’s a 20th century phenomenon - does the ‘glorious past’ only start after 1900, even though the favorite symbol for it was only around in the 1860s? The 19th century ‘glorious past’ still seems to be rather lacking in glories - and again note that things like literature, painting, sculpture, and theater don’t seem to be getting any examples at all.
We’ve given Americans 250 years to lose the racism. Since we obviously can’t or won’t separate it, can we chuck the whole “American Pride” thing in the trash heap, too?
Modern culture is super fusiony - perhaps particularly in the melting pot that is the U.S., but even the Romans stole their Gods from the Greeks. Music, art, food, literature, its all inspired from somewhere and borders have always been porous. Well, no one stole lutefisk - and I doubt its inspired anyone…but that’s an exception.
While it is very much true that rock and roll is a black American artform, it is–like black American culture itself–syncretic. See also tap dance, which is a black thing but it also an English thing. It’s also an Irish thing. It’s a African-English-Irish thing that could have only existed with three groups coming together.
I agree that most wearers of Confederate flag emblems don’t tend to give credit where it is due. But that doesn’t mean swinging in the opposite direction and giving all the credit to black folks is justified. Black folks were (and still are) borrowing from the cultures around them to create new things, the same as everyone else. These cultures should be acknowledged too.
As someone with black and white Appalachian ancestry, it tickles me to think my ancestors were kept apart through oppressive forces but nonetheless managed to harmonize through art.
To me, pride in one’s ancestors or heritage is not just shameful, it is a fundamental evil. It grows out of the evolutionary adaptation of tribalism, and tribalism must be fought in all forms. Even worse, it is a pride that is unearned. Just because your ancestors did something good has nothing to do with you. It’s not your accomplishment; it’s not yours; you have no right to pride in what is past.
Furthermore, take any way of classifying humans, to me, feeling pride in any self-classification is inseparable from the denigration of other humans. Just like one must constantly fight feelings that amount to internalized bigotry, one must fight this pride continuously.
Now, that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t like the things that come from your culture, the food, the fashion, the art, or whatever. But pride, in my eyes, is wrong. You didn’t create it; you have no right to take pride in it. I don’t believe in inherited virtue of any kind.
