Absolute WTF, 'what were they thinking' plots and subplots in old movies and TV shows

Is that what you think the message was? Because even as a kid, I thought evil Kirk was just the version of him that took what he wanted without thinking through the consequences or considering the feelings of others. It wasn’t that being a good captain required one to be rapey, it’s just that without compassion or awareness you won’t care who you hurt to get what you want.

I don’t think that’s the single, overriding message of the episode, but it’s a pretty explicit part of the plot.

Yeah, I know, and I think the ‘cornfielding’ of it was done in an absence of exactly the kind of tacit racism it is actually skewering by taking an abstraction; an RPG race of ‘evil elves’ that are primarily characterized by dark skin; a concept that seemed okay (to some) in the abstract but is clear in its offense when manifested. It is the kind of ‘overcorrection’ which actually inhibits having a well-rounded discussion about the issue instead of people just shouting at each other about free expression versus ‘hurt feelings’, and why just because you technically can do something isn’t justification for why you should do it.

Similarly, castigating or eliminating all forms of ‘xxx-face’ seems like petty vengeance over a cultural issue that is much more than just surface bigotry, i.e. giving acting roles to white actors when there are actually better suited actors who would fit the role better both in appearance and the experiences they bring to the role, which is a discussion that would highlight how absurd it actually is, like casting Emma Stone as a half-Japanese character in a terrible film made in 2015. When the rule just becomes “No blackface/yellowface/redface/et cetera” you essentially shut down the discussion of why the practice is not only offensive but also pretty dumb and lazy, and you end up with people either getting upset that they are ‘forced’ to ensure their favorite sports team being renamed “because of snowflakes”, or else demanding diversity in all casting even if you are making a film about Mormon settlers in 1860s Utah trying to figure out how to irrigate their gardens with salt water and the blood of natives. It’s going from one severe lack of nuance and awareness to another extreme without consideration or discussion of why both poles are wrong and harmful.

Stranger

Explicitly during the Enterprise run, the Klingons (who have ST:TNG appearances) are attempting to adapt and appropriate human augment technology (the now-banned tech that was used to create Khan and his kin, with a few additional updates). It became (because Star Trek and reasons) airborne and infected all Klingons who were exposed. It would, eventually, be overcome/bred out by the time of ST:TNG. The main episode in question:

Regarding the Jekyll and Hyde issue, most modern interpretations are more nuanced, and if anything, lean towards the Kirk interpretation. Both sides are needed, and ‘heroic’ versions of Hyde (think League of Extraordinary Gentlemen [movie] or the BBC miniseries Jekyll) imply the need for the power of the ‘dark’ side, guided by the compassion of the ‘light’ side. Very much in keeping with the Star Trek version.

Granted, the specifics of the near rape are troublesome, but it would probably be unrealistic to assume that such desires aren’t endemic to humans (of all sexes and sexual orientations).

An interesting point of the BBC Jekyll series I mentioned (and enjoyed immensely) [spoilers follow]:

It’s a condition that is hereditary, and ISN’T just linked to males. So you have a bit more equal opportunity - not just males who are constantly beset by a dual-nature. But it’s a very minor, late point.

That thing seemed to malfunction with depressing (and convenient) regularity. You would think they would have pretty much worked the bugs out by the time they were installed in a freakin’ Starship!

Agreed about the Jekyll miniseries; I thought it was awesome and thoroughly enjoyed it. And James Nesbitt did a great job of portraying both characters.

I’m glad others enjoyed it. After coming back to mind, I went to see if it was streaming anywhere easy, only to have minimal luck. So I blew some holiday Amazon credits from “no-rush shipping” and bought streaming rights to the entire series for under $6. I am now happy, and my impulsive, selfish (can’t share it), and greedy ‘dark side’ is appeased as well!

On the blackface thing, context matters.
In the abstract, wearing blackface is no more racist than a blonde wig, it’s only the history in the US, and things like the minstrel shows that make it racist. History and intent make things racist.

So now, in 2023, sure it’s been established as unacceptable and it is a very deliberate choice to blackface. But that doesn’t mean every example in the intervening years has been racist.

It annoyed me a little bit when shows like Bo selecta here in the UK apologized for blackface, when they were very obviously not racist in substance and I’m saying that as a black man.

Except we see ‘modern’ Klingons in the Original Series era going all the way back to Star Trek: The Motion Picture. They do evolve a bit as prosthetic arts got better but were essentially fixed as of TNG, as were their uniforms which were distinct from those in the TOS presentation. The explanation was really a solution searching for a problem, instead of just tacitly acknowledging that alien makeup, costuming, and set design had advanced since a low budget ‘Sixties t.v. show. Nobody has tried to make an explanation for why Romulans also changed so much and nobody cared.

Nothing seems to work particularly well on the Enterprise, requiring people to constantly crawl around in tiny “Jeffries tubes” recalibrating sensors and repairing plasma conduits regularly. You would think such an advanced ship with a powerful computer system essentially capable of doing everything with simple voice inputs would also be largely self-maintaining, but I guess it was programmed to give the crew something to do so they didn’t spend all of their time fucking and fighting on the holodecks.

Stranger

It isn’t directly movie or tv, but all the discussion of Seven Brides for Seven Brothers and Star Trek made me remember an old Star Trek Novel:

It’s a crossover between Star Trek and Seven Brides. It was kind of weird, and fairly funny.

I have read the novella, albeit, about 30 years ago, and seen the silent film with John Barrymore, and the 1931 & 1941 films with Fredric March and Spencer Tracy respectively,

The novella and the films are, how should I say-- divergent? the three of them are all based on the stage play that was produced in RL Stevenson’s lifetime. They do seem to get to the same core, though, that Stevenson did (absent a romance), which is that Dr. Jekyll’s goal was to separate his evil impulses in order to exercise them completely; his mistake is in assuming that the good side will be the stronger side, and easily defeat and eject the evil, when the reverse turns out to be true.

The ultimate message is somewhere between “Look before you leap,” and “Don’t play in God’s domain.” In other words, cautionary, however you choose to frame it, which I found quite deft-- and kinda like the messages we’re getting from genuine scientists about proceeding cautiously with AI. Yes, it’d been done before, but with heavier didacticism.

RE: Soulman; I was 22 when it premiered, and I can tell you it raised a lot of eyebrows at the time. Pretty much the same objections raised here were raised in 1989, even the ones about "Maybe this used to be OK, but not anymore*. The major difference is the vociferousness. Back then, it was “Um, do we still do this? I thought we didn’t anymore?” “Excuse me, but I think this might be offensive?” “Isn’t this a little odd, for 1989-- 1949, maybe.” My favorite was “I’m not black, but…”

I actually can think of a few movies about racism that aren’t racist: Get Out; Do the Right Thing; I’m on the fence, but maybe A Patch of Blue. And, Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner may be as stale as last year’s matzah, but I don’t think it was at all racist in it’s time, and still isn’t really racist, just so banal at this time that it seems to trivialize the problem.

Hey, to quote Memory Alpha’s summary of the two part episode:

"I doubt my superiors will allow me to remain in my position. I’ll need to find a new specialty – perhaps cranial reconstruction! "
"I have a feeling that’s about to become very popular. "

So any issues with any TOS era can be hand waved as incomplete transmission of the ‘cure’, or cosmetic surgery to ‘fix’ the problem.

But really, your point here is completely correct:

I get your point, I think, but unfortunately there are people who don’t see all the delicious onionesque layers of meta-irony, they just see Ken Jeong in blackface and are offended. And, in a sense I think, it’s not just that the social taboo against any blackface, no matter what its intention, is always wrong, but that it’s also kind of played out. The ironic, comedic use of blackface to criticize how casually racist or clueless some people can be, kind of became a cliché for awhile there. Maybe in the near future we’ll see the rise of the ironic use of blackface that satirizes the ironic use of blackface from the '80s through the '00s.

I’m not so sure I follow, and therefore can’t quite say I agree with, your conflation of the backlash against ‘xxx-face’ as being a reaction to the casting of white actors over actors who would be better suited, leading to a more extreme overcorrection in ‘politically correct’ renaming of sports teams or film casting that is historically inappropriate, leading to a backlash against the backlash. But that may be due to you thinking three steps ahead of me, and I haven’t quite caught up yet :blush:

“Transporter goes wacky, leading to plot stuff” seemed to be exclusively TOS. By TNG, the transporter issues seemed to have all been solved, and it was the holodeck that constantly malfunctioned, endangering the crew and causing drama. Yeah, the Federation was pretty sloppy with the new tech beta-testing. Unless the Enterprise was meant to be the beta version :smile:

The really problematic thing about “The Enemy Within” is Spock’s final line to Yeoman Rand, after the two Kirks have been re-integrated into one. Spock says to her, “The imposter had some…interesting qualities, wouldn’t you say, Yeoman?”

Yeah, the way he tried to rape you? That sure was interesting, wasn’t it? :face_vomiting:

How 'bout tacitly acknowledging electronic and computer technology had advanced since a low budget 'Sixties t.v. show? I read somewhere that the producers of Enterprise found themselves in a bit of a bind; the show had to include technology that was less capable than the original series, but more modern than real tech of the early 2000s.

As for everything breaking on the Enterprise, I just figure we only get to see what happens on the ship when something interesting is going on. There must be plenty of routine missions, mapping star clusters, transporting diplomats, where nothing goes wrong. Those times don’t get made into episodes.

Mostly. Under extremely unusual circumstances a transporter clone of Riker was created. In another incident four members of the crew were regressed to childhood. Not to mention Tuvix.

What I meant (and was probably unclear in my exposition) is that the discussion about putting actors in “xxx-face” has become about how people of that ethnicity are offended by it, overshadowing the discussion of why their aren’t more actors considered for and cast in those roles who are a better fit to begin with. The archetypical example is the casting of David Carradine in Kung Fu, despite the fact that not only was he not of Chinese descent but also not skilled in any Asian marshal arts and had the charisma of a wooden post, whereas Bruce Lee actually helped develop the concept with the intent of being cast as the titular character, was an expert in Wing Chun kung fu, and had an obvious screen presence. This necessitated a backstory where Kwai Chang Caine was half-European and a lot of cutaways any time Carradine did a spin-kick because he couldn’t keep his balance. Casting popular actors in xxx-face just because they are a draw or really want the role often results in unintentional humor and/or embarrassment (see John Wayne’s turn in The Conquerer as an extreme example) and denies employment and exposure to good non-white actors instead of just casting an actor who is appropriate for the role; it’s stupid and distracting in many cases where it is poorly considered, but it is almost never intended as a kind of ‘minstrel show’ of traditional ‘blackface’ performance, for which being intentionally offensive and belittling is actually the purpose.

In reflexive response, we’ve actually gotten to the point that casting for diversity is mandatory even when it often doesn’t make sense, and even discussions of the appropriateness of ‘xxx-face’, either for the purpose of satire or because there is a narrative reason is now essentially verboten, while there remains an actual salary and hiring gap along racial lines in film and television production that isn’t broadly discussed under the thesis that the issue has been sufficiently ‘repaired’ through meeting some kind of required diversity threshold. And the film industry pats itself on the back for occasionally producing and celebrating a film like Hidden Figures or Killers of the Flower Moon, but rarely enough actually following it up by making many more films about the contributions or abuses that are rarely discussed. It’s a kind of papering over of actual prejudice with awards and celebrations to avoid most of the difficult discussion about actual ongoing problems with deep historical roots.

Stranger

Ah ok, I think I do understand your point better now. At first I was going to say that you’re raising a larger point that goes beyond the original point made, which was the recent use of blackface as an ironic statement ridiculing racist attitudes becoming an offensive trope in itself. But thinking about it, you’re right, the general whitewash casting that’s gone on in Hollywood over the years is related to that; it’s all of a piece. Things got to the point where all ‘xxx-face’ casting, no matter the reason or intention, became offensive, resulting in backlash and over-correction.

All I can say to that is, attitudes and social mores have a way of swinging like a pendulum, sometimes too far one way or another, until they find their equilibrium (though it’s often temporary until something happens to unbalance things yet again). Hopefully we can eventually reach some level of cultural and racial equilibrium and understanding, not just in popular entertainment, but in society in general.

See also: the holodeck. See also: Lt. Cmdr. Data.

I don’t know, after dealing with various state-of-the-art high-tech devices, I just assume they’ll malfunction frequently.