Abu Ghraib was awful, I had no idea that worse things happened in the US.

The BBQ Pit
101

Well, for a while it looked like this was going in the direction of “my countries prison system is better than yours”. That was not my intention at all. I really don’t give a shit that it was produced by Brits. I also don’t buy the whole conspiracy crap, and some of the stuff they’re selling is reactionary and inflammatory.

I watched every episode of OZ on HBO, and I love watching Cops. My newest favorite show is Inside American Jail. I also worked with a former prison guard who had tons of stories to tell, both positive and negative in regards to the correctional officers behavior. I’m no expert by any means, but I’ve always been interested in criminal justice. I’m not naive enough to think that prison is like a day care, but some of the events depicted in that video were disturbing to me.

Restraint, control, and displays of force are necessary in a prison environment in order to maintain order. I understand this. Some people might get hurt if they are involved in violent behavior. That’s part of prison, and most of the inmates are there for a good reason.

What I have a problem with is force that is excessive to a large degree, cruelty for the guards’ amusement, guards that take out their aggression on already subdued inmates, and guards exacting revenge on an inmate. None of those things are in the job duties of a correctional officer. There comes a point where the captor is no better than the captive, see the above referenced Stanford Prison experiment.
Now, Joe Arpaio is something else. If his tent city helped with overcrowding, great. The notion that the pink clothing he has made inmates wear, and the green looking bologna that he brags about serving them could make potential criminals think twice about committing a crime is laughable. The man likes to make his inmates suffer, he practically admits it. He keeps getting re-elected presumably due to his “tough” stance on crime. Some sick fucks get off on other peoples suffering, some people vote for another guy to do it for them.

Is this situation worse than Abu Ghraib? Maybe, maybe not. I don’t have all the information on either subject. I don’t know how sever the beatings were at AG, nor do I know how many deaths were a result of such beatings. I also don’t have all the info on deaths resultant from beatings in the US prison system. The fact that this is happening within the US does not make it worse than AG by default.

The simple fact is that I saw things on that video that really upset me. If anyone can watch beatings like that and say “Fuck 'em, they’re in prison.”, perhaps they would like a turn wielding the baton.

102

You are getting more like a liberal, AirDave, when you feel the need to premptively apologize for nothing more than a demand for common decency. Not giving you a ration of shit, here, but my point is that we are all pretty much steeped in it. We aren’t mad at them, disparage them: we *hate * them.

For instance: the prevalence of prison rape was not that commonly known, say, twenty years ago. And now its a joke, a staple of poor comedy. “Scooter Libby’s going to jail, he will take it in the tail…”. What does it take to outrage us, when it comes to these people? What crime need one commit to deserve such as this?

We take not-very-good people and put them into a sausage grinder of violent paranoia and brutality. We keep the pressure on until we chuck them out with $50 and a cheap suit. When the inevitable happens, we run them through again, apparently hoping for improvement.

Our prisons are full of very bad people. Many are much worse people than they were the day they arrived. Its like dipping your dog in the pig sty and beating him because he stinks.

103

Better. Much better. I trust you understand I have no beef with you and was simply pointing-out that the Tango has no relation to Spain. Too bad, because even if I have no idea what I’d do with my feet if forced to dance one, Robert Duvall’s and Al Pacino’s magnificent demonstrations of said art, only make me wish I could. Simply awesome – and Carlos Gardel was its god.

Oh, and don’t worry about the rib. It was originally Adam’s anyway.

Not a secret that you and I seldom agree. But I can’t, for the life of me, find any fault with the quoted part of your post.

That’s the whole point, isn’t it?

Open up a thread on any of those nations and we can talk all you want about their penal system. This isn’t one however…just in case you haven’t noticed Captain Latin-American.

And btw, I challenge you to find a single post of mine where I declare Spain is some sort of Nirvana. But I have no problem saying that as opposed to thirty years ago, I feel/think we are on a much better track than the US of A. In fact we have the lowest unemployment numbers in the thirty pus years of the end of our bloody dictatorship.

Willing Workers Relocate To Spain

Oh, and as a point in fact, as opposed to your earlier dump on my country (just one of a myriad and or torrent, mind you) we are not exactly small potatoes as you’d have us be:
Spain emerges as M&A powerhouse

But hey! You’re more than welcomed to keep on hating. Thus my suggestion of an Anglo-Saxon blood transfusion remains intact. Perhaps you’ll find that Dopers can help you with this. Though you’d probaly have much better success at Free Republic…if they can get past your non-European native origins that is.

And yes, no doubting after all that said, that we’re ants as compared to the major permanent UN SC members – but now more than ever, Spain is the major nexus between over 500 million Hispanics and most of the rest of first world nations. Rather BIG ants if I may say so myself.

mhendo,

Incisive posts even if I am not much for “me too” responses.

askeptic and 'luc,

As you can see, my posse had enough sense to drop this old man home at a reasonable hour due to his increasing decrepitude. No doubt they knew I’d hinder the rest of their party evening. That’s alright though – I’m fairly sure I’ve out-partied them all combined at least 2 to 1. Not something to be proud of, but there it is.

None the less, I thank you both for your good wishes and return them in spades. May you both live see the ending of Lord Of The Rings III, the extended deluxe DVD version. And the ensuing sequel if they decide yet another one is needed.

104

What irritates some people is that your OP was a specific political jab, instead of something like “Inmates In American Prisons are Treated Like Shit, Check Out This Video”.

Many people are saying to themselves, “Dude, our prisons have been fucked up forever”

I agree, to a point. We can discuss the state of American prisons, but the Abu Ghraib ref was completely irrelevent political bullshit, unless you are saying that American prisons were all sweetness and light before GWB became Prez. :rolleyes:

105

Well, it may have been taken as such, but that was not my intention. I fucking hate GWB. If I want to say it, I will. I have no reason to allude to something like that when I can just say it outright. As much as I hate GWB, I can only blame him for his responsibility while he was Governor of Texas, which I have yet to do. This is not about him.

The AG reference was due to the global reaction about the incidents there. Humiliation is not cool, but it’s a far cry from murder and torture. I freely admit that I don’t have all the facts about either case, but what I saw disturbed me. The AG pics were distasteful to say the least, they were threatened with dogs, and they had religious icons desecrated. Personally, I did not hear about, or see anything about that situation that upset me more than what I saw in that special.

I agree that our prison system has been fucked up for a looong time, this is the first video evidence that I have seen to date, that has upset me this much.

I’m not shilling, trying to get people to watch a video I might benefit from, or making a political statement. I’m just appalled by the behavior of some of these guards.

106

Meh. Irrelevant. The examples used in my question could just as easily have been England, Australia, and Germany.

The issue was not whether it is necessary for a US program to do a story on those countries’ prison systems.

The issue is that, if a US program did decide for some reason to do an expose on those countries’ prison systems, and uncovered evidence of systematic abuse, would it be acceptable for people in those countries to attempt to divert attention from the substance of the report by launching ad hominem-type attacks on the nationality of the reporter? Because that’s pretty much what a few people in this thread have done.

If you want to criticize the show for bad reporting, or for over-inflated portentousness, or for drawing spurious links, go right ahead. That’s substance. But don’t begin your defense with a “Who are you to criticize America” whine. It’s just unbecoming.

107

Well, B-I-N-G-O.

Quite honestly, Duck Duck Goose’s comments come off a little on the frantic side but if John Mace and Klaatu actually want a couple of rebuttals:

“Oh, yes. There is[an anti-American bias].Why go out of your way to tie it in to Abu Ghraib?”
'cuz that’s the most famous recent American jail story Britons are likely to have heard of.

“Why bother to mention that Brazoria happened when GW was guv of Texas?”
'cuz he’s currently the most famous person in the world.

“Looking forward to seeing grainy security camera footage of drunks being tortured by pepper spray in the Moose Jaw lockup.”
Cops dropping Indians at the edge of town in the middle of winter so they freeze to death is actually something they are trying to clean up in some Western provinces. Not as funny as the Moose Jaw lockup gag, I guess, but I wouldn’t be surprised or sniffy if a BBC crew did a story on it.

ETA: Of course the doc is a little ominous sounding, it’s not PBS. All that said, the OP hasn’t explained why this is WORSE than Abu Ghraib.

108

See my post #101.

109

Ooops, missed that last bit. So I guess you kind of retract and just say “They’re both horrible”?

110

Did I ever say that the incidents at AG were not horrible?

111

OK, this may be overly simplistic of me - you guys obviously know each other and have likely chewed through this topic more than once. But:

That’s the point I was trying to make. Don’t we pretty much “know” that crime is directly correlated with poverty in this country? Isn’t the media feeding Americans’ fear towards criminals? Aren’t there plenty of musicians and filmmakers who glorify violence and criminality, turning it into a kind of fame? Does anyone bat an eye when celebrities and athletes (who get massive media attention and therefore ARE role models) turn out to be drug user?

Our politicians lie, our President has zero accountability; middle- and lower-middle class jobs are farmed out overseas for greater profits; smaller industries are bought up right and left by larger companies who are less concerned with their day-to-day management than with increasing stockholder returns.

Greed, fear and paranoia are running this country right now. Well, that and corporate branding. We don’t tolerate people who don’t fit the mold; in fact, we’re scared shitless of them.
And somehow, prison guards, the guys at the very end of this equation, are the “bad guys”?

No, it’s not OK to torture people, but prisons are a reflection of who we are.

112

Of course…and ignorance ended up being fought.

113

Broad-brush much, you sanctomonius asshole? You know why they switched to the pink underwear? It’s because criminals would steal the regular prison outfits and wear them on the streets…respeck’. They were smuggling them out! The sheriff’s office was losing thousands on replacing stolen clothing. But you know what? Gang-bangers seem to have an aversion to wearing pink prison clothes.

As for the bologna loaves, they look atrocious, and I imagine that they don’t taste well, but the point was made repeatedly when they started serving them that nutritionists assisted to make sure they were above and beyond dietary requirements. They’re actually healthier and more enriched than what had been served before - and again, cheaper, which was the whole point.

Arpaio’s purpose is that he wants to make going to prison a miserable experience so you try to avoid it. And who are you to say that it doesn’t make potential criminals think twice? Cite, please?

The guy’s a gloryhound who cares more about his image than anything else, I’ll grant you that. On the other hand, he’s had repeated death threats and even attempts on his life made, all because he took Playboy out of the prisons and replaced HBO with the Disney Channel. What a monster.

114

I never said or implied you did. I meant you retracted “worse than”.

You are totally misusing “broad-brush” but at least you didn’t say “strawman”. I’m real sick of that one.