Can C4 or other stabilized explosives detonate without a blasting cap, detonator or other triggering explosive?
I know on mythbusters they considered C4 unsafe after just heating in a commercial (1000 watt) microwave for 60 seconds (they detonated a chunk of C4 next to the microwave to dispose of it). Yet in another episode, they light it on fire and stomp on it repeatedly for no noticable effect.
I am not a demolitions expert.
My husband is retired Army, PMOS Combat Engineer, and he’s told me that military grade C4 is disgustingly stable. I’ve heard stories where rounds have been fired into blocks of C4 to no effect.
I don’t know that microwave ovens are necessarily part of battle equipment, though…
~VOW
They can but it is very unlikely.
If you are following all safely precautions, then you are quite safe.
It takes negligence and/or a concerted effort to blow yourself to smithereens.
I am EOD (Explosive Ordnance Disposal). C4 and RDX (along with SEMTEX, Comp-B, PBXN-series, etc.) are specifically designed and manufactured to be insensitive, meaning that they will not detonate unless under specific conditions: i.e. initiated with caps or det cord, proper fuzing (with boosters), or sympathetically detonated by a nearby similar charge.
I have rucked with 15 lbs of C4 on my back to a UXO. I have driven with cases of C4 on my ATV on a range clearance. I have lit a clump of C4 on fire on the demo range in a demonstration of stability. C4 and RDX are inherently stable and will not just detonate (or deflagrate) spontaneously. Your demo charges have to be stable enough to transport to the detonation site.
Now the nitroglycerine from dynamite that’s crept up the wall? Uffdah. TATP? Hooo boy.
Tripler
Delivering exact explosives knowledge since roughly around 2009(ish).
Just to confirm Tripler, C-4 and other plastique compositions require both high thermal impulse and an intense pyroshock in order to explode. I don’t think any mechanical shock, such as impact from a bullet or being dropped from any height will result in even partial detonation. They are also not sensitive to moderate electrical shocks; you would have to hit a brick of C-4 or Semtex with an extremely high voltage impulse with enough amperage to vaporize part of the material in order to initiate detonation. Fire by itself will not initiate these explosives, though if they combust under pressure it is possible to get a detonation wave started.
Pure RDX in crystalline form, however, is fearsomely sensitive, and has to be handled with special precautions. Nitroglycerine (which is no longer used in modern dynamite) is not especially sensitive at lower temperatures but can become extremely sensitive if it develops impurities, and has the nasty habit of leaching into other substances and then being initiated due to high local stresses (like the Hertzian stress of a ball bearing in contact with a bearing race) and so has to be handled very carefully to prevent any kind of spillage.
TATP, HMTD, and other “home-brew” explosives have a tendency to be extremely sensitive (hence, why commercial manufacturers don’t produce them), exacerbated by the often impure chemical sources used to manufacture them. Such substances are best disposed in place whenever possible because it is not possible to assess sensitivity.
Stranger
Yes, modern plastic explosives and mixtures require high impulses of heat, shock and or friction to initiate a detonation. However, your second statement is not necessarily true. AF EOD used to have a .50 cal M107 rifle for “SMUD” attacks (Stand-off MUnitions Disruption) on distant bombs–the kinetic energy of the round would have enough to penetrate the bomb body and initiate deflagration. There have been some anecdotal cases where Soviet munitions were fired on with 5.56mm, and began burning. I suspect those were based on chemical decomposition of the main filler explosive, and the rounds hit an insensitive part of the then-seperated mixture.
Yeah, that’s right. Heat is not enough on its own to initiate detonation on 99.9% modern military demolition explosives (I exclude ‘old timers’ like TNT, and dynamite). Deflagration (burning) however, can be easily accomplished, albeit at a slow rate, by applying kitchen match to C4. But add heat and shock? Yeppers: “bang.” However, even under some circumstances, C4 can ‘snot’ all over your target–the heat and shock aren’t sufficient enough to carry through the explosive material, and your M112 block (somehow) physically seperates before it can be completely consumed, leaving plastic explosive residue all over yer crap.
Now, keep in mind, I’m speaking on a practical, hands-on sense; a lot of environmental and circumstantial factors come into play. To debate theory would put us here all day.
Tripler
I’ve got old timers in the shop that can tell verifiable story upon story upon story about Range clearance ops.
You ever see TATP under a microscope? It’s amazing. The jagged crystal structures give it its insensitivity.
But to also add: your kid’s making TATP or HMTD in your house? Personally, I’d burn it down before I try to handle it. Sorry about your wife’s fine china and your collection of Elvis teaspoons. :rolleyes:
Tripler
(But that’s just me.)
I seem to recall Hubster telling me that you can set C4 on fire, or drive over it.
However, if you set it on fire and THEN drive over it, you’re done.
~VOW
Could that be why they weren’t willing to handle the C-4 after it had been microwaved: they were afraid some of it might have separated out? (small amount of unstabilized explosive = random detonator)
I just want to say that it’s a good thing you can’t make HTMD with 3% H2O2.
Rob
Can C4 be detonated with a firecracker?
Rob
Great username/post combo.
I’m also curious. This is a fascinating thread.
No, not reliably. It’d be a fluke if it did.
Tripler
But you’re approaching the limits of sensitivity, and stupidity.
I honestly don’t know what effects a microwave may have. I suppose it is possible to heat the plasticizer such that it dissociates from the RDX, but as you can heat C-4 to a gooey paste (i.e. above the glass transition temperature) or light it on fire without it eloding I don’t think it would be an issue. Generally to separate the energetic compounds from a plasticizer requires using a solvent to dissolve the plasticizer. However, many solvents may also either break the explosive compound down or sensitize it, so you can’t just dump a brick of C-4 into a beaker of toluene and sift out the solids; the reaction rates and solvent concentration needs to be carefully controlled.
A #8 blasting cap or the equivalent is necessary to assuredly detonate C-4. However, I wouldn’t stand anywhere close to you if you elected to try this experiment.
Stranger
How powerful is a #8 cap compared to Class C or Class B fireworks? Could C4 be set off with a larger, appropriately confined charge of ordinary black powder?
Rob
A friend of mine told me that in a minor war (Malayan Emergency) he would use"Plastique" as a firelighter,just put a lighter to it and it started a fire well for a cup of tea!
There are plenty of stories from several theaters of conflict of people using various plastique explosives as fire fuel. you really do need a detonator to set them off.
For that matter, people have done all sorts of crazy-sounding things with excplosives. They apparently used to heat dynamite on stoves to thaw it back in the old days.
I wouldn’t recommend trying stunts like this, for obvious reasons – the consequences of judging incorrectly are outrageously bad. And, even in the old days, among experienced miners, things didn’t always turn out happily:
Here, too:
How could you be so careless that you donate c 4??
Every frickin’ time I read that title.
:o
I’m not going to answer this question on a public message board.
But I will say that I use military-grade M6 and M7 caps, which have about twice the main charge of a commercial #8 blasting cap to ensure it goes off. The worst thing I can face is a properly primed main charge, that was fired but failed to detonate.
Tripler
Those are a totally different animal than something that hasn’t been set to fire yet. :eek:
OK – I’ve been waiting for a good opportunity to ask this so…
In Die Hard John McClain straps some C4 to a chair and shoves in a “detonator” of some sort. He then literally says “Fuck it!” and shoves in 3 or 4 more.
My understanding, as limited as it is, is that C4 detonates, that is the chemical reaction moves through the material faster than the shockwave ensuring the entire mass is exploded before it can be blown apart.
If this is true, does adding additional detonators give the resulting bang any more oomph or is this just another Hollywood construct?