Even if the victims had no common sense (which I disagree with, but bear with me), I find it apalling that you have no sympathy for them. Surely you don’t think people deserve to be burned to death because they are not as intelligent as you?
Ok, I wouldn’t say I don’t feel sorry for them - I do. But ‘sympathy’ carries with it the sense that “I know how you feel, and would have reacted similarly”. I don’t and I wouldn’t. If I see the walls and ceiling catching on fire, and I’m not on the Universal Studios tour where they demo the SFX, then I’m outta there. Or at least inching my way towards an exit, just like the cameraman did. I just don’t like music enough to risk dying for it. I don’t think anybody deserves to be burned to death for any reason at all (except a few select people, like Josef Mengele and his ilk).
So while I don’t agree totally with Ace, I do disagree with pitting him over what he thinks.
I really lament the shift this board has undergone over the last few years. We’ve gone from talking and arguing about stuff to talking and arguing about how you’re supposed to feel about stuff. And people are actively discouraged from posting their honest feelings and opinions about stuff by constant threat of being ripped for them, instead of being able to just discuss them.
Billdo, I think you’re a really great guy, but I disagree with the “PC Police” thing, where we are all supposed to join in talking about what an inhuman jerk somebody is because we don’t agree with them and they don’t feel the proper set of emotions over something.
FWIW, Joe, my comment was directed at Ace, not you.
I don’t think Bill was being “PC police” by any means. I think he was probably offended at Ace’s arrogance at suggesting that a)the victims deserved no sympathy because they weren’t as “smart” as Ace, and b) that Ace asserted that he was too smart to get caught in such a situation.
And the time between the fireworks going off and the walls catching fire was mere seconds, and Ace’s argument seems to hinge on the notion that there was enough time between the fireworks and the conflagration go get through the crowd and out the door. Clearly, that wasn’t possible for most people.
Ace is offensive because he is constantly asserting his mental superiority. But he’s like that snotty little brainy outcast in grammar school, who constantly has to assert that the other kids don’t like him because they’re “jealous” or something, when the truth is that people don’t like him because he’s abraisive and annoying.
In any case, Joe, I think you may be viewing the history of the board through rose-colored glasses. In response to another thread, I just went back and viewed some threads associated with “Melingate,” and hoo boy were people arguing about “how you’re supposed to feel about stuff.”
Maybe you’re right. It sure seems different, though. Maybe it’s because I’m dragged into more of that type of stuff now. 
Plus, I’ve been thinking about something Duck Duck Goose wrote in one of the pit threads a couple months ago: The addition of more ‘social’ forums seems to have changed the character of the board substantially. It seems now to be more about community than about knowledge and being a source of good information.
Ace
Chagrinning? 
Nice word, I like it - although for some strange reason it makes me think of the Cheshire Cat. 
Okay, I’m confused - we were talking about the ‘shame’ of dying while attending a Great White concert. So, you are sympathizing with the families not because they lost a loved one, but because the deceased died in such an embarrassing manner?
Only if I’m not required to inspect your “short arm”. 
Seriously, you missed my point entirely, which I suppose is my fault for not making it clearly. Let me try again - you said:
Point one: Detecting the smell of something burning that is not “harmless tobacco” isn’t a very sensible reason for deciding you are in danger and should leave immediately. It’s possible that smoking is no longer allowed at indoor concerts - I haven’t been to one in years - but when I did go regularly lots of things besides tobacco were being burned. Many restaurants and bars have candles or oil lamps, or even fireplaces as in the Cracker Barrel example, not to mention the ‘burning’ smell from grills, certain dishes, etc. If you are attending a venue at which there might be a smell of smoke or burning for one or more valid reasons, it’s silly to jump up and leave should you detect such.
Point two: A burning cigarette, cigar, or pipe is just as capable of starting a fire as anything else that is burning - hence my comment that “fire is fire”. Logically, according to your many other statements, the smell of burning tobacco is just as much an indication of danger as the smell of anything else burning. So where is the ‘common sense’ in ignoring one fire hazard, while running like a greyhound from all others?
Does that make things any clearer?
Well, I can’t quite make sense of this. Other than using some of the same words, does this have anything at all to do with what I said?
Ace, you might as well admit that you’re just spouting bullshit, and trying to make yourself out to be more alert and clever than every one of those poor folks who died in the fire. Rather a cheap shot, in my mind - the only possible contender for the Darwin Award that I see is the idiot who decided it was safe to use pyrotechnics in that setting. Certainly all of the dead and injured were victims of human stupidity, but not necessarily their own.
A word about this. We all like to think we would behave a certain way in an emergency situation. But until we are actually in that emergency, we have no fucking idea what we would really do. We can have cool heads and make smart choices in hindsight, but we don’t know (we CAN’T know) if we would succumb to panic or be rational in a confusing and threatening situation. Even trained people are not immune to panic and confusion.
How about some text this time? 
I’m not talking about people ‘freezing in the headlights’. That is, as you say, unpredictable and forgivable.
I’m talking about people looking at the ceiling starting to burn, throwing up their right fist, and demanding that Great White rock their brains out. And in this situation, I am more then comfortable in saying that I would leave once I saw the fire begin. Nothing amazing their. Some people did just that. Others did not, for whatever beer-soaked reason.
People do not always react appropriately in an emergency. I once worked at an ancient railroad site, doing salvage. I was watching as a co-worker was cutting down a tree-trunk sized steam pipe from the top of a high wall. He had cut all but a small bit on one end, and was cutting thru the other end all the way, all with an Oxy-Acetaline torch. The theory was, that when he went thru the one end, the pipe would swing, break and fall.
It didn’t work that way.
The pipe swung back, didn’t break, and swung the other way again. It then broke, bounced off the wall, and headed straight for the Oxy-Acetleline tanks 5 feet from me. I froze. I had plenty of time to run, but I freeking froze on the spot. I could not move.
In my mind, I knew that if that pipe hit the reglators and snapped them off, that the tanks could possibly explode. I thought about that the whole time I watched this happen, but I couldn’t move.
Fortunately, the pipe glanced off the gauges, only to break the glass in one, and fell to the side. And there I stood, paralized with fear.
I should have run away. I couldn’t. Was I dumb?
Yes
No. But if you looked at the gas tank and expected entertainment, even though you damn well knew that something was wrong, then you would be dumb.
well, let’s think about the ramifications of that for a moment, though. over 300 people in a building simulaneously heading for the exits. THey had seconds to turn and find and get out. the building was engulfed in flames w/in 3 minutes, but even in the video, you can see the beginning of the great clouds of choking smoke. IOW, had all started for the exits at that time, you may well have just ended up with the stampede for the door occuring quicker, but the number of people per second being able to exit said door wouldn’t necessarily increase.
I’ve seen crowded hallways in schools, with their students all trying (not in a panic situation) to get through the doors at the same time. ya know how when a football game ends, it can take ages for the crowds to thin out? same thing, but add panic, fear and choking smoke.
I suspect that had all turned and attempted to run at the same time as the camera guy, the results wouldn’t have been much different.
there were too many people in the place to get through the doors within the small amount of time they likely had. (MHO) does that mean there should be more fire exits etc? dunno. I suspect that for any building, should the building be at/near/ slightly over capacity and you suddenly had to get all of them out with in a very short amount of time, that many wouldn’t make it.
The club wasn’t overcrowded- it was at less than capacity. And most people headed for the one exit they knew, the entrance, rather than the 3 they may not have known about or didn’t know were functional.
from what I’d read, club capacity was 300. The number of dead and injured came close to that, and there were some 60 or so that were not injured. so, it was over capacity, but not by a lot.
here states 96 dead (we know now it’s 97, 'cause they found another body in the rubble) and 187 treated at hospitals, for a total of 284 casualties. I’d suspect that more than 16 people exited w/o injuries.
And this has what, exactly to do with the victims responsibility for their deaths?
At least when I was working at the old rail yard, I had a reasonable knowledge that what we were doing could be potentially dangerous. Those people entered that club expecting entertainment. Not Fiery Death. They had no reason to expect, at first, that the flames were nothing more than a special effect because they TRUSTED the club and the performers to NOT KILL THEM. And by the time that most of them had realized the real danger, there was panic and confusion.
By then, with the condition of the building, and the tightness of the crowd, it was too late.
Must…fight…urge…can’t hold it in…any…longer…GAH!!
http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/meltingpot/jinx/399/jokes/Music/Roof_on_Fire.html
Originally from The Onion.
Damn it! That was me, not her.
Something else to take into account here. I was never a fan of Great White, but I think their main demographic was people my age (32) or thereabouts. In other words, Gen X.
When my generation was in our teens and early twenties, there was a trend towards scaring people for effect; messing with their heads. “Huh huh…Those girls got all scared…They didn’t see the humor in it!” I remember a guy at my first college who got fake blood from the theater department and set things up to look as if he’d slit his wrists in his bed. The “purpose” of this was to “freak out” his roommate, for some dumass reason. Unfortunately, his SO found him first. According to him, she “overreacted” by calling security. :rolleyes:
I’ve been to raves that I could see were potential death traps the minute I walked in the door. But I was cool, right? I mean, what did I want to do—go back to the dorm and play Monopoly? I’ve seen people dare each other to put their hands in candle flames. Ever climb a water tower, or dodge a train? (I didn’t, but I’ve known people who have.) Look at all the “stupidest injury you’ve ever gotten” threads on this board. People did things, knowing they might get hurt, knowing they would get hurt, in order to prove themselves.
SARCASM…SARCASM…SARCASM Only a candyass doesn’t have at least one scar. SARCASM…SARCASM…SARCASM
My point is, in the past ~20 years, people have conditioned themselves to scoff at the initial signs of danger. They’ve built up the defense mechanism of accepting the fact that people might be fucking with them just to see a reaction, and suppressing that reaction, until, as particlewill said, it’s too late.
Actually, Rilchiam, I think that’s a very strong point – and very true. It has actually become so natural for me not to flinch (to avoid getting punched twice. ) that it didn’t even occur to me to think of that.
I’m 32 also. We’re the ones that ate up the slasher flicks, and it was a sign of being a total wuss to jump at the “BOO!” parts.