I saw some video yesterday, and y’know, there’s some folks in there trying their damndest to point out the fact that there’s a fire going on.
What to make of these people? Are they asshats too, because instead of getting the hell out, they actually tried to help?
You’re right on this one, **Ace. ** But that’s not the fault of the patrons.
Three freaking minutes is just NOT enough time, **Ace. ** Not enough time for everyone to get out. My husband is a musician, and while he doesn’t use pyrotechnics, he’s played many a packed house. It can take three minutes to get from your table to the restroom when the place is full, even if you’re stone cold sober.
I can’t find it within myself to place any blame on the patrons here. The common-sense argument needs to be applied to the club owners, the band, and the band’s management, NOT the patrons.
I saw that too, Rilch, but you said what I was trying to so muuch more clearly and vividly that I didn’t have a response.
I’m in that same age bracket, so perhaps I share your views. I know Ace is a bit younger, so perhaps he was spared the living-on-the-edge danger that was 80’s heavy metal.
The “Ace thinks three minutes is plenty in a fire” is going to join “Ace thinks he has ungodly common sense” on the strawman bench.
Sorry, they already have a full team.
For those limited few who were reading for context, you may recall, I implied others were more deserving of our sympathy than these. For instance, the [10
elderly people](http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-nursing-home-fire0226fe
b26,0,4168005.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines) who died in the Conn. nursing home fire were killed in their beds as they rang for the nurses who had left their posts.
They died breathing smoke and toxic fumes from a 15-minute minor fire, because we, as a society, chronically underfund elder care; and we care so much about corporate costs that we refuse to force old buildings to have sprinklers, despite the manifest benefits of water meeting fire.
Forgive me, did I miss the horrified pit thread on these innocent lives lost? Was I napping when we used our horrified and exercised populace of the Straight Dope to do a goddamn thing about the problem?
Look, either we’re having a debate on the uses of common sense in relation to the RI fire, as stated in the thread, or we’re channeling our sympathy for something useful, like insisting that buildings built before 1970 be retrofitted with sprinklers, which would have saved lives in both fires: Go here http://www.sprinklernet.org/
Both are worthy topics of discussion for a board built around community and honest debate. As for the remaining accusations, strawmen, and axe-grinding that honesty denies us from placing under this umbrella let me say this:
I find wielding the latent sympathy for the dead to score cheap points against a poster on a message board to be pathetic and distasteful in the extreme.
It happens here, on our “ignorance-fighting” board all the time and I admit I don’t quite know what to make of it, except to give it a name, “sympathy mauling” and let the flowering fields of meta-discussion bloom.
Actually, you’ve got two points there. (Where were you earlier?)
One is, that part of being a teenager is the humorous testing of panic reactions.
The second part of being a teenager is testing your capability in truly dangerous situations, and seeking out those situations.
Those are common, though distinct processes of maturation. In teenagers. Not 32 year-olds.
Further, neither of these points would exonerate the participants (if one were allowed to weigh in on such things :rolleyes: ), firstly, being “panic-hardened” would lend an ironic sense of detatchment from panic would only have helped the participants; and secondly, risk-evaluation and competency under risk doesn’t allow one to ignore risk, it just allows accurately evaluate it.
If you hypothetically stopped each one at the door saying, “it’s overcrowded and there’s a hefty fire risk, plus fireworks,” and they all responded as per your argument “it’s cool, I can handle it,” that argument implies that the resulting deaths were unlucky rather than tragic.
Ace,
As Anthracite said, retrofitting can be very costly. I am surprised the nursing home was not required to have sprinklers, by 1970 they were much more common than the 40s, and the patients less capable, but demanding all homes be retrofitted may force many out of business. Then what do you do?
Suggestion: A lot of those homes get Medicare. Maybe Medicare should start paying a higher rate to homes with sprinklers. Those who can upgrade get more money. The ones who can’t still stay in business. Maybe educate consumers - put Granny in a home with sprinklers.
And because there was no thread about those lost, don’t think everyone here was saying “Hey, they say Eskimos put old people on ice floes. We put them in homes, and burn 'em down. Haha.”
Can you say people did not write their Congressman? Senator? Whatever state body that regulates nursing homes? A few letters to the right people would help more than a pit thread, which I didn’t see you start either.
Actually I use Phoenix and leave IE for her, but when one of us walks away from the computer with a window open, the other might sometimes sit down at the open browser, read something that we want to respond to, and out of force of habit just post without checking. hahaha
It’s carelessness and laziness on both of our parts. Probably more mine than hers, but there you go. It was much better when she had her computer and I had mine, but we share one now, hence the huge number of JC-as-JD posts and vice versa.
Did you read my second post, Ace? The thing is, no one goes to any kind of event expecting to be immolated. As quick as that place went up, how long did each person have to run through the mental processes from “Hey, cool fireworks”, to"Oh my GOD I’M ON FIRE!!" But it appears that wherever YOU go, you expect sudden, fiery death at every turn.
You must be a real pain in the ass at parties…
“HEY! Is this house rated for this many people?” “How many smoke alarms are there?” “Would you please point out where all the exits are in case fiery death comes calling?”
Don’t feel slighted; I just tend to respond to the pertinent, thoughtful and funny posts. But if you wanted something stamped “Ace” to show the kids, fine:
This is the same non-point that Brutus shot down the first time.
It surprised me when it popped up. I thought I had said all that I needed to, but I guess not.
You’re trying to set up the excluded middle there, Ace. Another possibility is that we’re just venting about someone who made an obnoxious comment, and then followed it up with additional idocy. I’m not debating any of the underlying issues or channeling my sympathy anywhere, but rather trying to explain why you behaved and continue to behave like an ass.
I don’t think anyone is wielding latent sympathy for the dead here, but rather pointing and laughing at someone who is acting foolish. It just so happens that the person acting foolish is another poster on these boards, rather than some random asshat from work, school or the community.
The extra spice in Pitting a poster is that the victim has the opportunity to respond and either make his case, or, as here, just dig himself deeper into his hole.
I’m referring to the original thread, not your abortive misdirection of a pit thread. Still working on that feeble-minded thing, I see.
This explains why you can’t remember your own arguments.
Have you read your own OP lately?
Make my case? You never made an argument, which makes your thread a further travesty of a joke of an overprotective response.
In fact, I’m starting up a fund to buy you kevlar sneakers, so when you end up shooting yourself in the foot in the future, it doesn’t hurt so.
But feel free to claim victory – in the same sense that the squirrels claim that they’ve conquered the park every time all the humans decide to wander off and stop feeding them.
I’m intrigued, Ace. If your comments referred to the original thread, why didn’t you post them there, rather than in this “abortive misdirection of a pit thread” that seems to have you so riled up?
