ACLU and 9th Ct. of Appeals - putting uppity voters in their place

I just read the opinion. It’s pretty logical and fact based. That’s exactly what is wrong with it. The SC is likely to kick this back to CA courts without ruling on the merits. Just a guess.

To be clear, that would just mean that the Supremes would be punting. They would not be ruling for or against anyone.

Too much research makes courts overstep their bounds. Here we have a federal court getting involved in a – purely – state election. That could be the fact used to distinguish Bush v. Gore.

If an issue of state law can be decided independently by state courts without any effect on the nation as a whole, the feds should punt, the argument would go.

Somehow the court is going to have to put a stop to Equal Protection being expanded to every single anomaly in the electoral process. Independent state grounds would be one logical place to do it.

Again, a guess. Please, no wagering.

John Mace, check out the Caltech/MIT report here (PDF). They concluded that hand-counted and optical-scan technologies were the most accurate, punchcards the least.

That’s a reasonable observation. Certainly enough to make me curious about why the ACLU doesn’t pursue 2nd Amendment rights more. Here’s what I found:

http://forums3.aclu.org/messageview.cfm?catid=90&threadid=4899
ACLU President Nadine Strossen said in the interview:

<snip>
The plain language of the Second Amendment in no way, shape, or form, can be construed, I think, as giving an absolute right to unregulated gun ownership. It says, “A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right to bear arms shall not be infringed.” Certainly, when you have the notion of “well-regulated” right in the constitutional language itself, it seems to defy any argument that regulation is inconsistent with the amendment.
<snip>

Apparently they support the well-regulated part and that makes sense to me. So they believe that they are supporting the 2nd Amendment. But I acknowledge that that is traditionally a liberal viewpoint. But then consider who the Brady Bill was named after and why. Just a bit of irony.

The ACLU would certainly support the NRA’s right to organize, demonstrate, speak freely, publish, lobby and so forth.

Actually, punch-card voting machines have had their accuracy questioned for decades. The first study of their efficiency was in 1975, which occurred after significant difficulties had occurred in 1968 and 1972 in San Francisco, Los Angeles, Houston, and other cities. You can read an excellent summary of the history of punch-card voting systems if you bother to read the opinion of the 9th Circuit! So, it isn’t like this is some sudden trouble that manifested itself only in 2000 in Florida.

And in answer to the rather uninformed opinions of John Mace, who would help himself if he would read up on the process for selection of voting machines in California, specifically by reading California’s Elections Code §§19100 et seq., counties cannot use a voting machine that hasn’t been certified by the Secretary of State. His/Her office doesn’t certify a machine until its abilities have been demonstrated. Punch-card machines were originally certified back in the 60’s because they produced much quicker vote tallies than hand-marked ballots counted by people, in return for which their error rate was acceptable. Quite possibly, at the time their error rate was better than that of hand-marked ballots counted by people; you’d have to look at the data from the 60’s. Of course, as the 9th Circuit’s opinion points out, we now have computer driven voting machines which have significantly smaller error rates, making continued use of punch-card voting machines stupid. The only reason they haven’t been phased out previously is that there is a tremendous expense in doing so, especially in a county with almost 10,000,000 people!

For much the same reason, Lucas County, Ohio, still uses lever pull machines from the 19th Century! If you look at them, you can see the levers for voting the “ticket”: that is, voting for all the Dems or all the Repubs on the ballot! They are being replaced this year, thank goodness.

Let’s hope that you actually educate yourself about the issue, read the decision, and, putting aside your apparent bias against the “liberal” court ruling, accept the fact that the decision WAS based on input from plenty of experts who have studied the issue quite a bit more competently than it appears certain posters here have. Not that a lack of knowledge about the facts has ever stopped some people from posting here… :rolleyes:

On a more interesting note, I thought I might add a bit more depth to the discussion of what the Supreme Court meant in Bush v. Gore with its language that:

It’s not quite accurate to say that the Court always tosses face-saving language like this in for no reason, or that it always tries to limit the effect of its rulings to the case at hand (although one criticism of the current Court is that it rarely makes sweeping rulings affecting large numbers of cases). A statement like this can also be made to ward off certain types of future suits, and that’s what I think was happening here.

The Supreme Court, I believe, was trying to head off suits in federal court based solely on the difference in technology being used for vote tabulation from county to county. You can imagine the deluge of suits that might result otherwise. I file suit in federal court complaining that Lucas County uses Scantron equipment, while Wood County across the river uses touch-screen voting equipment. I assert that one or the other is less reliable, thus diluting the vote of whomever is forced to use the less reliable equipment. I claim that Bush v. Gore supports the conclusion that this is an equal protection violation. Fortunately, the District Court judge has read the language above from that decision, and understands that my suit is without merit if my only basis is the decision in Bush v. Gore. The same thing would be true of suits filed over differences between the states as to voting technology used in a national election.

Of course, that isn’t what happened in California. What happened there is that, in 2001, certain groups sued the Secretary of State to force him to decertify punch-card voting machines on the basis of studies showing their inherently and significantly higher error rates compared to other certified machines. They asserted that continued certification of the punch-card machines would result in equal protection violations when used, based upon the ruling in *Bush v. Gore. Thus, the case was applied to a statewide problem under the control of a statewide official. The Secretary of State attempted to have the case dismissed through summary judgement, presumably arguing that Bush v. Gore didn’t apply, and that no federal constitutional violation existed, but that motion was denied. At that point, the SoS for California conceded that use of the machines would result in federal constitutional violations and negotiated a settlement with the plaintiffs as to when exactly the machines would be phased out. This is the consent decree from Common Cause I under which the election of March, 2004 is to be held without punch-card machines.

Hopefully this explains a difference between what the Supreme Court was excluding and what it probably included.

Finally, I am not sure what an en banc hearing would result in. Thirteen members of the 9th Circuit would have to vote to review en banc. Presumably they would procede to decision without further oral argument. Probably it would delay any consideration by the Supreme Court until VERY late in September or early in October. I am assuming that there are conservative members of the 9th Circuit who wish to avoid the possibility of the Supreme Court slapping a 9th Circuit decision down in a very public way; I get a little tired of having to be skeptical that these courts are not being motivated by political concerns. Oh for the days of Conservative Dems and Liberal Republicans… <sigh>

Actually, on Equal Protection grounds, the accuracy of a particular method is pretty much irrelevant (though the accuracy would be relevant to other issues). Nor is the actual method used. The important thing is equality of result. If all of the differing voting systems used in a particular election all had the same average accuracy rate, than Equal Protection concerns are not implicated - even if the accuracy rate were only 1%.
The fact that individual machines within a particular type of voting machines will probably vary in their accuracy is not a concern - anything made by humans won’t be perfect, and the Equal Protection Clause does not require the impossible. Of course, if a particular machine has an accuracy rate below the accepted range for the machine type, it should be tossed in the trash rather than used in an election.
As for you lack of conviction that punch card machines are less accurate, I can’t help you there. The judges were convinced, and their opinion is the one that counts.

Sua

It’s the same as the single, solitary African-American in pictures that organsizations have to show how “open-minded” they are…strictly for show

**

I am. I just prefer to do it with methods other than bullshit lawsuits and judicial fiat.

Thanks for the link, I was wondering what the numbers were that the 9th was basing its ruling on, though I haven’t had time to actually read the ruling. Are the following numbers from page 21 of the above link similar to what the judges had?
spoiled votes per Presidential and Gubernatorial/Senate races:
Punch Card 2.5 4.7
Optical Scan 1.5 3.5

(the report didn’t state the margin of error, in the quick look I had of it. :slight_smile: ) I wonder if the difference in spoiled vote percentage is enough justification to nullify the Constitionally-mandated time for election.

-k

Umm, page 21 of that link? Did you get it mixed up with another link- that one is just a short AP story.

The great thing about our country is that any individual who has a grievance can walk into a courtroom and ask that their rights be respected, even if the majority of people are apathetic or even hostile to it.

They call theselves the American Civil Liberties Union, not the American Freedon of Expression Union.

Blaron

But it’s not the state that’s treating them differently.

RTFirefly: you accusation of whuckfistle “cherry picking” are unfounded. It’s not like he arbitrarily chose a portion of Clinton’s administration; he chose the portion which is most analogous to the Bush years we know about.

Can those that claim that Bush v Gore leads to postponing the election explain how?

The Ryan, as my posts have explicitly pointed out, it IS the state that is treating them differently, by allowing the use of certified voting machines that produce disparate results. Are you failing to comprehend that this is the core issue?

Actually if truth be told, your posts have been confusing on this issue, as you appear to be backing away from your original position without appearing to do so. In your previous posts, such as the duplicate one on top of this page, you seemed to be arguing that any variation in voting method in a statewide election would run afoul of the principles of Bush v. Gore. You made no mention of any consent decrees. Then in your next post you suddenly reversed field and announced that in your opinion the SC “was trying to head off suits in federal court based solely on the difference in technology”, something that I had been arguing at length in this thread and which is at odds with your previous posts, though you failed to acknowledge this. Your new position became that since the CA SoS agreed to replace the machines under a consent decree, it now falls under the SC ruling.

Clever footwork there, but you can’t blame people for failing to understand your posts.

As for your new position, I’ve already addressed this in comments to Sua. I don’t see that a consent decree by a CA SoS suddenly changes constitutional principles of EP - either it is or is not a violation of EP - I would think the SC can decide this on their own, and are not bound by whatever the CA SoS has agreed to. Unless you are trying to say that the CA SoS has already accepted the principle of an EP violation and cannot argue otherwise due to the principle of Estoppel - if this is what you are saying, please say so explicitly. Also, back up your claim that there was in fact an agreement that it violates EP. I think it is very possible (absent any other evidence) that the CA SoS accepted that his duty would require him to make sure that to the extent possible the vote is as accurate as possible, including upgrading voting machines whenever possible. IOW, it is not necessarily the case that the settlement involved accepting any principle of EP.

IzzyR, please explain why you think there is no EP violation. Let’s move away from California, and place it outside the Democrat/Republican paradigm.

You and I are residents of the State of Hysteria. It is election day, and we are both voting for the new governor.
You live in ElCheapo County, which has employed a dartboard voting system - you throw a dart at the section of a dartboard representing your candidate. Over the years, the dartboard system has been shown to have a 50% accuracy rate.
I live in HiTech County. HiTech County uses mindreading to record votes - you step into the booth and, using 1920s Death Ray technology, the election machine determines your voting intentions. Over the years, the mindreading system has been shown to have a 99.99999% accuracy rate.

On election day, you step into the voting booth and cast your dart for Gary Goodman. The next county over, I step into the booth, and the machine reads my mind and records my vote for Trisha Trueheart.

In the election for governor, we are legally on equal footing - as citizens of the state of Hysteria. Our respective counties of residence has, under law, no effect on our right to vote for governor or the value to be attributed to our respective votes. However, because ElCheapo County has chosen to use the dartboard system, you are only half as likely to have your vote for your preferred candidate recorded as I am. You and I, though we are both members of the same class of persons - Hysteria voters - are being treated unequally.

The Equal Protection Clause requires that persons within the same class be treated equally. Hence, there is a violation of the Equal Protection Clause in the above scenario.

Sua

Well it’s true that our right to vote has nothing to do with our county. But the practical administration of that right has been given over to the counties, and we are subject to their authority, for better or for worse. In this case one county is better and the other worse, but I don’t see that as being any different than if one county was better and the other worse at anything else. No EP issue, in either case.

If the people in Cheapo County want to be treated better they can move to HiTech County. Or throw out the bums in Cheapo County. Whatever. But as long as every institution of government is treating all its citizens equally within the areas of its responsibility, I don’t see an EP violation.

Frankly it would seem to me that according to your thinking the entire system of countywide supervision of election would be unconstitutional under almost all circumstances (in statewide elections). Besides for the (apparently) common discrepancies in voting machines, I would think that any difference in administration between one county and another could be considered a violation of EP, if it can only be shown that it makes a difference in enabling people to vote. Suppose one county mails out sample ballots and the other does not. Or one has better designed ones. Or one has more convenient polling booths, or more polling booths. And so on. Hey, the citizens of one county are being treated differently than the citizens of another county - it’s a lot harder for them to cast their vote. Violation of EP. I like my rationale better.

This is a state election, not a county one, Izzy. ¿Claro?

I believe that there is a huge difference between the state treating people differently, and allowing a situation in which they are treated differently. Suppose that all rich people in the state of Hysteria belong to the Hysterical Homeowner’s Association. The membership dues are high, but it’s a statewide HOA with a wide array of benefits. One is that it maintains a statewide, 24-hour voting hotline. Any member can call and ask any question regarding how to vote (to be clear- that’s how to vote in the sense of what to do to vote, not who to vote for; the HOA does not get involved at all with that). They will tell them how to register to vote, how to obtain an absentee ballot, what the voting procedures are in their counties, what they likely sources of error are, how to maximize the chances that your vote will be recorded correctly, etc. Studies have shown that while the poor residents of Hysteria have a voting rate of 30%, and 80% of those votes are recorded correctly, members of the HHOA have a voting rate of 50%, and their votes are recorded correctly 95% of the time. Is there an EP violation?

It is not the state that decides what type of voting system is used. The counties do. It seems like a subversion of democracy to tell the inhabitants of a county that they don’t get to decide what voting system to use. What if the entire state used a punch card system? Would there be an EP violation then? What if another state used another system? Would there be an EP violation in a national election? What if rich counties have a better public tranist system, and more people can get to their polling place?

Let’s start again from the top.

California’s Secretary of State is required by law (Elections Code §§19100, et seq.) to provide “regulations governing the use of voting machines, voting devices and vote tabulating devices.” No such device may be used in California without prior certification by the Secretary of State (hereafter CSoS). The CSoS is required to periodically review the acceptability of such devices, and remove certification if it stops being acceptable. In such case, any election within 6 months of decertification may procede using the decertified machines. In 2000, California had certified use of VotoMatic (pre-scored chad cards), Datavote (cards punched by stylus but without pre-scored chads, various optical scanning systems, and certain “direct recording electric devices” (touch screen vote machines). This history is easily reviewed in the factual summary of the Opinion filed by the panel of the 9th Circuit in the case of Southwest Voter Registration Education Project, et al. v. Shelley.

(This factual background shows The Ryan (one hopes) that individual counties don’t get to decide what type of voting system will be used, except to the extent of choosing among approved systems. If the CSoS were to determine that only “direct recording electric devices” were acceptable, the counties would not be able to use any other type of device. Of course, maybe this is a “subversion of democracy”, but I hardly think so :rolleyes: )

In 2000, the Supreme Court of the United States held that the statewide recount of ballots cast in the selection of presidential electors was violating the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment. Specifically, the fundamental right to vote required the state to conduct the recount in such a way that no dilution of the value of the individual votes occurred. The statewide recount was proceding with individual counties approaching the difficulties presented by certain types of vote-tabulating methods differently, without recourse to any statewide mandated standard for determining the result of any specific disputed ballot. In the opinion of the Court, as stated in the per curiam opinion, to procede constitutionally, the state would have to adopt uniform standards for vote tabulation, and apply them to the “votes” recorded in the election. The Court’s opinion did indicate that the Court was not considering the constitutionality of using “different systems for implementing election.”

(Here we get to the much disputed language from Bush v. Gore about limited extent of holding. The Court’s language that, “Our consideration is limited to the present circumstances, for the problem of equal protection in election processes generally presents many complexities,” is “throwaway” language, because all cases are “limited to the present circumstances.” This doesn’t mean that stare decisis limits application of the rule of law announced in the case to the “present circumstances;” lower courts applying the decision will parse from the case the actual principle the court is announcing and applying, and use it to determine the constitutionality of similar situations. When the Court then says, “The question before the Court is not whether local entities, in the exercise of their expertise, may develop different systems for implementing elections,” the Court is, as I mentioned previously, attempting to forclose certain attempts to extend the principle of the case. Specifically, in my opinion, they are attempting to foreclose suits attempting to force states to utilize one type of vote tabulating device statewide, or suits trying to force a federal voting machine. This is not what the case at hand is about; hopefully IzzyR and The Ryan understand this difference.)

In 2001, several organizations sued the CSoS, requesting that an injunction issue prohibiting continued certification by the CSoS of pre-scored punch card voting machines. The plaintiff’s alleged that continued certification of such systems resulted in vote dilution violating the U. S. Constitution, because such systems had significantly higher numbers of “votes” that went unrecorded, or improperly recorded, than other systems in use in the state. The CSoS attempted to have the case dismissed upon (I presume) summary judgment, asserting apparently that the plaintiffs assertions, even if true, did not result in a violation of the Constitution. That attempt was denied (the court determined that the plaintiff’s allegations, if proven, would result in a constitutional violation which could neccessitate the injunction requested). In short (though we don’t have the pleadings to look at, nor am I going to bother looking them up because it really isn’t relevant to the current case exactly how the parties got to their consent decree), the court accepted the application of the principles of Bush v. Gore and other prior cases to the California situation.

The CSoS did not appeal this ruling. Instead, the CSoS promptly decertified the pre-scored punch card machines, effective January, 2006. This decision was made and issued 9/18/01. Subsequently, the parties to the case entered into a settlement moving the date of decertification up to 3/1/04, mandating that the primary election of March, 2004 would occur without the use of pre-scored punch card machines. The court issued a consent decree, upon which judgment was entered. Anyone wishing to review the case further can reference Common Cause, et al. v. Jones, C. D. Cal. 2002, No. 01-03470 (Common Cause I).

To summarize: had no recall petition been filed, the next statewide election in California would not have used pre-scored punch cards. Propositions 53 and 54 would have appeared on the March, 2004 ballots. The use of such cards up to that point in the 2002 statewide elections and the 2003 local elections was allowed solely because, a) the requirements of the Election Code required that at least the 2002 primaries be held using the systems being decertified, and b) it takes a certain amount of time to replace the machines and train the personnel to use them properly, a fact the plaintiffs in Common Cause I understood because their prayer for relief initially requested replacement by March, 2004, not some date sooner.

(Now we can dismiss the assertions that the fact the 2002 elections proceded using the systems in question has some bearing on the present case: they were used in that election because it was simply unfeasible to replace them, as well as unfeasible to refuse to hold elections until replacement in 2004. Of course, had any of the statewide races been decided by a margin small enough to implicate the unconstitutional practice of using pre-scored punch cards, we can be certain that lawsuits challenging the results would have been filed.)

On July 23, the CSoS certified that a proper petition for recall of the governor had been filed with sufficient valid signatures to mandate a recall election. The Lieutenant Governor, pursuant to the California Constitution, (Art. II, §15(a)), set the date of the recall election as October 7. The plaintiffs in Southwest Voter Registration Education Project, et al. v. Shelley filed suit, seeking an injuction prohibiting the recall and initiative elections until such time as they could be held without use of pre-scored punch cards. The District Court denied the request for a preliminary injunction, and the plaintiffs appealed to the 9th Circuit.

With this understanding in hand, we can now dismiss of the points raised recently, specifically:

1) The fact counties have different systems doesn’t mean that equal protection of the laws isn’t being provided, so the 9th’s application of Bush v. Gore is incorrect. This is an incorrect statement of the issue before the 9th Circuit, because the challenged unconstitutionality isn’t that counties use different systems, but rather that the state continues to allow (until March, 2004), use of pre-scored punch card machines in ANY county. Counties are free under the opinion of the Supreme Court and the opinion of the 9th Circuit to use differing approved voting systems. But the STATE isn’t free to continue to allow use of a system that produces significantly disparate results diluting the value of the votes cast in counties still using the system. Remember that the apparently uncontroverted (to this point) evidence is that some 40,000 votes can be expected to be improperly tabulated (either incorrectly determined to be a vote for no one, or for some person or result other than the intended result). The error rate is at least 2.5 times that of other equipment certified for use in the election. Thus, the result of the suit would not be to force a common election machine on all counties; the CSoS would be forced to make certain that all systems in use have roughly equal propensities for error. This answers, I hope, whether they choose to admit it or not, the assertions of IzzyR and The Ryan about the impact upon the freedom of counties to pick and choose how to conduct elections.

2. The Common Cause I consent decree has no effect on the current case; it doesn’t establish that the system in use is unconstitutional. I haven’t said differently, nor has the 9th Circuit. But, the Common Cause I case DID get to issues of constitutionality when the court, ruling on the “motion on the pleadings” brought by the CSoS. In denying that motion, the court MUST have determined that the constitutional issue raised by plaintiffs was valid. It would have remained for plaintiffs to prove the fact of unconstitutionality, but the issue of whether it COULD be unconstitutional was already decided. It was only after this determination that the CSoS issued a decertification of the machines in question. The parties agreed to a consent decree establishing that the machines would be phased out by March, 2004, as initially prayed for in the request for injunctive relief. Game, set and match to the plaintiffs!

It isn’t relevant whether the CSoS agrees that there is an unconstitutionality to using the machines; the only reason the case is referenced is to attack the assertion by IzzyR, among others, that Bush v. Gore isn’t applicable. Clearly, the District Court in Common Cause I must have thought so, or ruled that the principles therein applied. Thus, it isn’t like the 9th Circuit is on some sort of precarious perch here in citing Bush v. Gore as persuasive authority for the proposition that the use of the machines in question is a violation of the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment. PLEASE note that the 9th Circuit did NOT hold that the case was controlled by Bush v. Gore; several other voting rights cases were cited.

Folks, the Bush v. Gore and equal protection issues here are red herrings! This case turns not on the issue of unconstitutionality of using such systems, but on the need for injunctive relief!. The 9th Circuit en banc, or the Supreme Court, if they overturn the decision of the panel, will most likely do so on the basis that an injunction shouldn’t issue despite the almost acknowledged equal protection violations involved. They will get into arcane discussions about the relative injuries to the parties. The cost of delay will be a factor, as will the uncertainty created by preventing resolution of the issue for 5 months longer than the constitutional scheme intended. And the standard ennunciated by the panel for injunctive relief may be reviewed, especially if the Supreme Court ever has to rule on the issue (see my previous post on this possibility).
One final word on this case. One of the predictions I and others made in 2000 following issuance of the decisions in the Florida recount by the Supreme Court was that the results of federal court cases would be more likely viewed as politically motivated. Mind you, there is always a tendency to view decisions as the result of liberal or conservative leanings; that is inherent in the fact that different viewpoints about the law based on such leanings exist. But in general, we haven’t seen court decisions on the federal level consistently questioned on the basis that they are motivated by an attempt to help a particular political party. Most Democrats questioned the result in Bush v. Gore by cynically asserting it was completely predictable as an attempt to shore up the Republican Party’s apparent victory in the presidential election. Now we have the shoe on the other foot, and Republicans scream that the 9th Circuit is simply toadying to the California Democratic Party. This sort of cynical viewpoint does little to support the concept of the rule of law in our society.

Dahlia Lithwick sez the 9th Circuit ruling was written specifically to go up the noses of the SCOTUS Five. Dunno how true it is, but it’s kinda fun to imagine what they’re thinking in response.

DSY, re your lamentations about the perception of partisanship in court rulings, whose fault is that? If we didn’t have transparently unprincipled rulings from the Supremes themselves (“limited to the present circumstances”), perhaps after themselves personally following the news stories about the James Baker -led political campaign to discredit the Florida SC and Tom DeLay’s Miami “riot” and so forth, would there even be a widespread perception of courts’ partisanship? Judges, heal thyselves.

Facts: A+
Rule: A
Conclusion: :confused:

I say punt it back to CA. Ha, ha! Joke’s on you! Bush v. Gore was subtle artistry. I can’t wait to hear how the rest of this goes! Legal catfight! Come watch!

That’s MY conclusion by the way. :smack: Others may be more confident in their conclusions. Predicting the outcome of this case, under these circumstances, involving something as malleable as EP, where one could argue that it is a case of first impression, between two hostile courts, with some factual distinctions…