Humbly Submitted: They All Blew It (An analysis for initiation of reasoned debate)

I can’t decide which of the plethora of threads to dump this in, so I’m starting my own. PLEASE adhere to the title! :slight_smile:

What the Supreme Court Did

  1. The Supreme Court of the United States ruled 7 to 2 that the decision of the Florida Supreme Court violated the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution by allowing the tabulation of votes under a standard allowing individual county canvassing boards to determine whether an individual ballot contained ‘clear indication’ of intent to vote. {IMHO the two dissenters to this conclusion were not really sure that the scheme didn’t violate the equal protection clause, just that there wasn’t a valid claim to that effect presented)

  2. The various justices of the Court split 4 - 3 (with two justices failing to state an opinion) in favor of holding that the Supreme Court of Florida did not impermissibly remake Florida law regarding selection of electors as established by the Florida legislature under authority of the US Constitution, Article II, §1. (This part of the opinions is irrelevant to the decision in the case, because the determination of an equal protection violation made it unnecessary to decide this question)

  3. The Supreme Court of the United States reversed the judgment of the Supreme Court of Florida which had ordered a recounting of certain ballots from the election of Nov. 7, having asserted that such a recount could not be completed in a constitutionally permissible fashion within the time frame allowed by the Florida legislature’s scheme of selecting electors (i.e., by December 12).
    The Individual Opinions: A Brief Review

The Per Curiam Opinion:

In an unauthored opinion, representing the conclusions of five justices (Thomas, Scalia, Rhenquist, Kennedy and O’Connor), the Court addressed two issues in order. It stated that:

  1. The Supreme Court of Florida violated the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment by ordering a review of certain ballots under a uniform standard that both could be and had been applied with disparate effect in individual counties. The Court noted that the application of the concept of a legal vote equating to a ‘clear indication of intent to vote’ had been shown to result in review in different counties under differing standards. Further, the Court noted that there had been differing treatment of ballots as a result of the decision of the FSC to ignore so-called ‘overvotes’ (ballots with more than one designated and mechanically read vote) and to include without further inspection the totals of the partial recount in Dade County (which included some ballots that were not ‘undervotes’) as well as refusing to order the review of ballots in Broward County, where the recount accomplished pursuant to the request for a manual recount might and or might not have properly applied the appropriate standard. Under relevant law (some of which is cited by the opinion), this was felt to violate the concept of ‘one person - one vote’.

  2. The Court further held that there was no way to remedy this violation through some modification of the original FSC order in the case. The Court asserted (with reference to a quote from the first Florida Supreme Court opinion issued 11/21/00) that the FSC had determined that the scheme for choosing electors established by the Florida legislature was intended to result in ‘full participation’ in the national electoral process. The Court then recites why this will be ‘impossible’ to do in a constitutionally acceptable way, even if some further effort by the FSC to add to the ‘clear indication’ standard were to occur.

The Concurring Opinion:

Chief Justice Rhenquist, with the support of Justices Thomas and Scalia, issued an opinion agreeing with the per curiam opinion, and adding some additional thoughts.
The Chief Justice concluded that the FSC’s attempt to interpret the elections law of Florida impermissibly rewrote that law to restructure the scheme of selecting electors by taking the power to determine what constituted a ‘legal’ vote away from the Secretary of State and giving it to the Florida court system. The Secretary of State had established that a proper vote was one that could be tabulated by the appropriate machine, and voters were instructed to make sure they voted according to these needs. The Chief Justice asserts that, in appropriate cases, the Court will not just defer to a state court’s interpretation of state law, citing authority for this proposition.

The Opinion of Justice Souter:

Justice Souter’s opinion is the only reasonably clear opinion, so I won’t rehash it too much. He concludes, in order, that

  1. The provisions of 3 U.S.C. §5 don’t mandate that electors be selected by Dec. 12 (sloppy analysis, by the way, since that isn’t what the Court is saying, and he could just have easily attacked what the Court DID say).
  2. The interpretations of Florida law by the FSC are not per se unreasonable, and the Court has no business rejecting them and substituting its own opinions.
  3. The order of the FSC violates the equal protection clause (arbitrary differences in application of the appropriate standard), but that violation can easily be remedied by letting the FSC establish standards in conformity with the opinion of the Court.

The Opinion of Justice Breyer

Justice Breyer went overboard, not only attempting to say how he felt on all issues before the Court but also attacking the issuance of the stay. His points encapsulated are:

  1. The FSC’s order violates the equal protection clause, most notably by allowing the results of Broward County to stand without further review under the established standard. The fact the FSC was trying to meet deadlines and avoid ‘legislating’ a new standard was not sufficient reason to do this; Justice Breyer declines to address more broad equal protection analysis of the general issues of which this case is one example.
  2. Any constitutional problem could be remedied in Florida; the refusal to allow the state to solve the trouble results in a remedy that is more harmful than the unconstitutional result of the decision of the FSC.
  3. The Chief Justice is wrong in his reasoning espoused in his concurring opinion. I’m going to eschew a review of this, since it is an example of biting on red herring.
  4. The Court should never have halted the recounting of the ballots with its stay, which injected it into a political issue in a way harmful to its interests.

The Opinion of Justice Stevens:

Justice Stevens, who with Justice Ginsburg is in the true minority of two here, addresses the various issues in detail, and with some added comments.

  1. The federal Constitution doesn’t require the FSC abstain from interpreting the laws passed by the Florida legislature (this really is addressed more to the previous opinion from the Court).
  2. The claimed equal protection violation doesn’t rise to the level of a ‘constitutional violation’. The Court has never held a similar situation to be a violation. The ‘clear indication of intent to vote’ standard is no less imprecise than the ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ standards applied by juries every day. Any concern regarding different application of the standard would be resolved through review by the judicial official ordering the recount. If this isn’t the case, then the whole voting system in Florida, which leaves to the individual counties the choice of voting methods, would be in constitutional doubt (um, no duh. Quoting the majority opinion, "This case has shown that punch card balloting machines can produce an unfortunate number of ballots which are not punched in a clean, complete way by the voter. After the current counting, it is likely legislative bodies nationwide will examine ways to improve the mechanisms and machinery for voting.")
  3. The remedy for the alleged constitutional violation is to let the state courts figure out how to do it correctly and timely. Rehash of everyone else in the minority here.
  4. The FSC didn’t impermissibly re-write Florida law.
  5. The attack on the FSC approach must be based on an opinion on the part of those complaining that the courts are not impartial, and can’t be relied upon to resolve issues of this nature fairly. Accepting that opinion by granting the petition to set aside the FSC decision does untold harm to the confidence of the populace in the whole judicial system.

The Opinion of Justice Ginsburg:

I won’t repeat how Justice Ginsburg repeats what others have said. She did, however, address two points that should be outlined.

  1. The Chief Justice fails to give due deference to the opinions of a state court with regard to state law. For an interesting view from an avowed liberal, who herself has more than once ignored the opinions of a state court, read this part of the opinion; she lectures the C.J. pretty well.
  2. The petition doesn’t present a ‘substantial equal protection claim’. The result from the admittedly imperfect application of the uniform standard ennunciated by the FSC would be no less imprecise than the result from the original machine counts. Further, any violation can be remedied by the FSC in a timely fashion, etc.

Next post will contain my own opinions about this.

I am new here but have been lurking around for a few days.

If I understand it correctly Justice Steven’s basic point is the same that RT Firefly made a few days ago which DS so contempuously dismissed as “legally naive”.:wink:

It’s a pretty commonsensical argument and I will make it myself. It seems to me that the status quo already violates equal protection in the sense that different voting methods in different counties mean that there are a lot more errors in the poorer more Democratic counties than the richer counties. The irony is that the handcounts were in part necessary to alleviate this. The main reason that they might have changed the result was that Gore counties were more likely to have undervotes.

So if the remedy violates equal protection I don’t see how the status quo is any better in fact it seems worse in that respect.

Of course in the future the state can remedy the discrepancies but why not apply that consistenly
to ALL violations of equal protection. Why can’t SCOTUS in effect say:
" Yes the handcounts probably violate equal protection but so unfortunately do the current procedures in the state. We can’t selectively strike down the remedy as a violation and ignore that the current vote-count is itself the outcome of a likely violation of equal protection. But after this election the state should do something"

Alternatively the court could say that while differing standads are worrying they aren’t of sufficiently large magnitude to be considered a violation given that other potential violation of similar magnitude have been long tolerated and are built in to the decentralized nature of the current US election process.

Well that’s it . I don’t know much about US constitutional law so I am only applying logic as I see it. Now I will wait for the esquire to show me why I am “legally naive”.:wink:

The following observations are offered about the action and opinions of the Supreme Court of the United States in Bush, et al. v. Gore, et al., here (2000):

  1. All reference to the statutory interpretation by the Florida Supreme Court is irrelevant and should be ignored, except as an example of a pissing match between justices who have substantially differing opinions.
    The Court was presented with two possible reasons the decision of the Supreme Court of Florida (FSC) should be reversed. One was an assertion that the order of the FSC was unconstitutional because it violated the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the US Constitution. The other was an assertion that the interpretation of Florida law by the FSC, upon which it based its determination that a further review and tabulation of ballots and votes on them was allowed, was unconstitutional because it violated the requirement that the scheme for selecting a state’s electors be set by the legislature of that state. Either reason, if agreed to by the Court, was sufficient to result in a reversal.

In general, the Court will avoid addressing issues that are unnecessary to the decision of a case. This isn’t a precise rule (it often gets broken by the Court as a whole and individual justices in particular). But when the Court can rely on an analysis that is uniquely up to the Court to apply, it tries to restrict itself to such an analysis.

Here, there is a 7-2 majority in favor of holding that the order of the FSC to review ballots for those with a ‘clear indication of intent to vote’ and then count those ‘votes’, combined with the decision to accept the already ‘reported’ totals of Dade County and Broward County, violated the equal protection clause. Such determinations are the primary purpose of the Court. For it to then attempt to determine the other issue is unnecessary, and also injects it into a question of interpretation of state law, which it is NOT uniquely constituted to handle. Indeed, a considerable portion of the various individual opinions ends up engaging in a written slugfest over what deference should be given the FSC on the issue.

Fortunately, Justices Kennedy and O’Connor avoided the whole thing in the majority opinion. We should ignore the petty dispute of the remaining justices, which reflects the ongoing tension between those who want courts to stay out of legislation and those who think courts have a duty to interpret often imprecise laws drafted by legislatures. And by the way, please note that the FSC’s interpretation was approved of by four to three (of those expressing an opinion; draw for yourself your own conclusions as to how J’s Kennedy and O’Connor felt about the issue given that the opinion of the C.J. didn’t become the majority opinion…)

  1. The equal protection issue is very poorly addressed by ALL the justices.

If I had offered any of these opinions as a law school exam answer, I would have seen a speed limit sign written in red when I got the answer back (and I’m NOT talking about those wonderful speed limits in places like Nebraska and Montana…). A good review of equal protection law identifies the classification which is allegedly treated differently, reminds everyone of the appropriate standard of review, reviews applicable case law, especially cases which are most analogous, then applies the relevant principles of law to the facts of the case. I defy anyone to find such an analysis in the opinions published in this case.

The majority opinion falis to analyze how the supposedly ‘disparate’ treatment from county to county actually results in a violation of the equal protection clause. Prior cases cited by the Court involve efforts either to reduce the value of votes (e.g., by diluting voting strength) or to restrict the ability to vote (e.g., putting a poll tax in place), none of which is really applicable directly. Yet, after the Court’s analysis, one is left wondering if a statewide election must be conducted by uniform processes with no variation in application in order to meet the ‘one person - one vote’ standard ennunciated in Gray v. Sanders, 372 U.S. 368 (1963) (cited with approval by the Court).

The opinion of Justice Souter assumes there is a violation based on the ‘arbitrary’ differences between standards used county by county; he draws a distinction from differing methods of voting for which there are at least understandable reasons for allowing, such as cost. But he fails to note the appropriate standard of review, so we don’t know if the Court needs to find a compelling state interest, or some lesser level of justification. He also accepts that there are differing standards without much evidence that such standards actually resulted in significatly different results in any given county, which certainly would be necessary for a finding that there was a violation of the clause in this case.

The opinion of Justice Breyer is even more full of milquetoast. Justice Breyer is only willing to say that, in these special circumstances, “fundamental fairness may well have counselled” adoption of some standard applying the concept of ‘clear indication’ to the system in question, i.e. punch-cards without a fully removed chad. How is THIS even close to adequate analysis??

The opinion of Justice Stevens asserts that the petitioners (Bush, et alia) fail to show that there was a constitutional violation here. To support this assertion, he notes that the issue has never been decided before (oh, wow, how novel, a case of first impression; like y’all don’t see that about 20 times a year…). He then analogizes the ‘clear indication’ standard with the ‘beyond reasonable doubt standard’ used by juries to determine guilt in criminal trials; apparently he thinks that looking at a ballot should be equated to deciding if, on the basis of testimony and other evidence, a person should be found guilty of a crime (you will note that the majority takes a swipe at this reasoning in its opinion). Finally, he notes that the trial judge could always adjudicate claims of disparate application of the standard. This ignores the fact that multiple judges might be handling contests filed in different courts over the results in different counties. It also ignores the fact that no one is saying that this standard is constitutionally defective per se; all those who find it impermissible do so on the basis of its application in this particular case, and the judge can’t remedy the trouble presented by Broward and Dade Counties. Excellen analysis, Justice Stevens. :rolleyes:

The opinion of Justice Ginsburg is even worse. First of all, she doesn’t say that the claimed application of the standard isn’t a violation of the equal protection clause, merely that it isn’t a ‘substantial’ violation of the clause. I wonder what she would think of an insubstantial violation of the clause as applied to, oh, say, blacks (which makes me wonder why the hell the Democrats didn’t assert the obvious; the Florida election scheme discriminates against minorites because it relegates heavily minority laden counties to imprecise methods of voting, diluting the minority vote, resulting in the whole Florida result getting tossed and possibly allowing the Senate to refuse the counting of any electors from Florida…). Then she simply notes that the imprecision of the applied standard is no different than the imprecision of the machine counts (this is acually a good argument for rejecting the remedy arrived upon by the majority, but says nothing about the constitutionality of the FSC’s order). Finally, she quotes an inapposite Supreme Court case for the proposition that states shouldn’t be required to have addressed all constitutional infirmities; let them deal with them as they come up. This from a liberal justice?

  1. The system contemplated by the Florida Supreme Court probably violates the equal protection clause in this case.

I reach this conclusion by application of the appropriate constitutional review, the principles ennunciated in prior cases, and some common sense.

Voting is a “fundamental right” (Reynolds v. Sims, 377 U.S. 533, 561-62 (1964)). Fundamental rights are protected by the Court applying a ‘strict scrutiny’ to any classification resulting from state action (citations way too numerable to mention). To be allowed, a state action that results in infringement on a fundamental right through disparate treatment of similarly situated groups must be necessary to solve a compelling state interest (Kramer v. Union Free School Dist., 395 U.S. 621, 626-28
(1969)).

Here, the claimed disparate treatment is the rejection of some ballots on the basis that they don’t contain ‘legal’ votes because there is no ‘clear indication’ of voter intent, when other ballots with essentially the same physical characteristics are found to show such ‘clear indication’ and are counted. If, for example, as there is some evidence actually was true, a ballot has a deep indentation in one chad, no other apparent vote for the same office exists on it, and one county will consider that ‘clear indication’ and another county won’t, that is disparate treatment of similarly situated voters. To be valid, then, there must be some compelling state interest in allowing individual counties to apply their own interpretations of this standard.

As noted by Justice Souter, this is hard to find. Indeed, the differences in application of the standard from county to county seem wholly arbitrary, that is, based not on any state interest but instead on the personal preference of the people counting the votes. One might argue that, in order to make certain that all attempts to vote legally are counted, no uniform requirements that are not in some way subjective can be formulated, so the compelling state interest is the need to identify all attempts to vote, the remedy is necessary, otherwise some such votes will be ignored. But this is a tail chasing arguement; we don’t justify disparate treatment otherwise unconstitutional by asserting we need to treat people in disparate fashion to remedy another constitutional need (or, at least, we don’t unless we are a court who is asserting that affirmative action is a valid remedy for past discrimination, but I digress). Besides, there is no reason that the standard for determining ‘clear indication’ can’t be some list of acceptable indications, such as perforations, detached corners, etc., that don’t rely upon on person’s opinion arbitrarily applied. As was shown to be the case, the actual application of the standard varied from county to county, and indeed from moment to moment in at least one county.

Further, prior case law probably requires this conclusion. As was stated in Gray v. Sanders, 372 U.S. 368(1963), the right to vote means both the right to cast the vote AND the right to have that vote counted. The Court stated in that case that, once a geographical unit for which a representative is to be selected has been established, all the electorate in that unit must have an equal vote. This standard has resulted in the disapproval of schemes weighting the value of votes (Gray v. Sanders), preventing military members from voting in counties in which they are temporarily based (Carrington v. Rash, 380 U.S. 89 (1965)), apportioning districts to make them unequal in size, diluting the value of the votes therein (Hadley, et al. v. Junior College District, 397 U.S. 50 (1970)), and requiring candidate to collect disproportionately large percentages of signatures from rural counties as opposed to urban counties (Moore v. Ogilvie, 394 U.S. 814 (1969)).

Indeed, the Moore case, cited by the majority, is a very close parallel. In it, candidates who were applying to appear on the ballot as independent electors for president were required to obtain on petitions the signatures of 25,000 residents of Illinois, which signatures had to include at least 200 from 50 of the 102 counties in Illinois. The petitioners had the requisite total, but missed obtaining the needed signatures from 50 counties. The Court, in an opinion by Justice Douglas, held that this was an impermissible restriction, because it forced the petitioners to obtain 200 signatures each from 49 counties that contained 93.4% of the population of the state and also obtain 200 signatures each from 53 counties with only 6.6% of the population. This, in the opinion of the Court, made the value of the rural voter much greater, since a rural candidate could obtain 25,000 votes from rural counties and meet the requirement, but a candidate representing urban interests could be precluded from appearing on the ballot soley from the inability to obtain the required rural signatures.

As in Moore, this case deals with potentially disparate results county to county. Indeed, Broward County recaptured many more votes than did Palm Beach County, which used a substantially different method of reviewing what was ‘clear indication’. So, it is claimed, a voter in Broward County who failed to fully punch a ballot had a significantly smaller chance of being unidentified than a voter in Palm Beach County who did the same. By application of the strict sort of rule found in Moore, if these claims are born out in fact, there appears to be an in fact violation of the equal protection clause.

Finally, let’s apply some logic to butress our thoughts. If we had a situation where there was an actual attempt to treat ballots differently, say by applying a very liberal standard to the votes in a given county in order to maximize the result for a given candidate, where all other counties had much more rigorous standards, no one would assert there was not a violation of the clause (indeed, this was the fear of the Republican party, I think). If THAT is a violation, how can the same result arrived at without malice be any less a violation?

But, I offer on caveat. There have been a lot of numbers bandied about regarding this election. I am aware of no actual proof that there was indeed a disparate impact resulting from the differing standards. However, here the FSC shot itself in the foot; it should have forced ALL counties to recount the ballots in question, and having failed to do so, it enshrined the application of different standards actually testified to at trial. As I said of that opinion, the FSC should have shut the hell up after it said “Count the undervotes.”

  1. The majority’s remedy for the violation of the constitution is both unnecessary and irrational.

In much the same way the FSC couldn’t resist saying too much in its opinions, the Court couldn’t just say: you have a bad standard, fix it. The determination that the FSC’s order could not be revised and the recount continued in a constitutionally acceptable fashion is both an unnecessary determination, and an irrational one as well.

The majority incorrectly assumes that the Dec. 12 date is a date by which electors must be appointed for the state electorate to ‘fully participate in the process’ of selecting a president. First of all, let’s dispense with the transparent attempt to pin this concept on the Florida Supreme Court. The FSC, in its opinion in Palm Beach County Canvassing Board v. Harris, issued 11/21/00, said, “Ignoring the county’s returns is a drastic measure and is appropriate only if the returns are submitted to the Department so late that their inclusion will compromise the integrity of the electoral process in either of two ways: (1) by precluding a candidate, elector, or taxpayer from contesting the certification of an election pursuant to section 102.168; or (2) by precluding Florida voters from
participating fully in the federal electoral process. {citation to 3 U.S.C. §§1-10}” This is a FAR cry from the assertion by both the majority and the Chief Justice that the FSC was stating that the Florida legislature intended that the selection of electors be complete by Dec. 12. This bit of out-of-context quotation and intellectual dishonesty does the Court absolutely nothing positive for its image.

Further, it is inconceivable that the Florida legislature, in setting the statutory scheme for selecting electors, anticipated the extensive litigation, not to mention the selection of an apparently unconstitutional remedy, that has followed this election. To assert with a straight face that the legislature intended ANY result from the election to be final by Dec. 12 regardless of what might have happened after the election is absurd, nor is it supported by any citation to other authority than the supposed assertion of the FSC to that effect, which we have shown was not that at all.

Actually, the system in place, as interpreted by the FSC, would, in the future, likely result in completion of the process by the safe-harbor deadline. But even if it didn’t, that wouldn’t mean that the legislature didn’t intend that the system be used to establish SOME electors, as Hawaii did in 1960. Further, as we are seeing here, the legislature can always attempt to take back its duty to select electors, an attempt that would be resolved by political processes. So, the reversal in this case is not necessary, either under the statutes, or under application of reason.

The remedy decided upon by the majority also is irrational. In the absence of any review of the ballots with no previously recorded vote for president, the results of the election will be based upon the admittedly incomplete tally of votes that was certified on Nov. 26 by the Secretary of State for Florida. These totals do not include admittedly legal votes. Who admits they are legal? The COURT does, that’s who, since it refuses to overrule the FSC on its determination that the definition of ‘legal’ vote includes at least some votes not previously tallied in Dade County, among other counties. So, to remedy the unconstitutional problem presented by potentially counting votes using different standards from county to county, the Court returns the election to results that don’t include already positively identified but uncounted legal votes. This irrational result is justified only by the fact that the outcome hasn’t been ‘sullied’ by the application of differing standards; please ignore the fact that it totally disenfranchises legitimate votes without establishing that this is necessary to remedy a compelling state interest. And who among those on the Court would really be willing to assert with confidence that the Florida legislature intended that their election result be tainted by the premature truncation of the process simply to make sure Congress can’t challenge the electors eventually certified after a constitutionally valid method of resolving exactly who was selected?

  1. The result gives the appearance of being result-oriented.

In my opinion, there is no greater disservice an action by the Court, or any reviewing court, can do than creating a reason to reach a given result, rather than reaching a result after due consideration of the law, as interpreted by the justices. Yet, here, the lack of cogent, complete analysis of the constitutional question gives one the impression that the justices were making it up as they went along, unwilling to actually look at the law for fear of reaching a contrary conclusion. Hell, the dissenters to this determination are just as bad, since their weak legal analysis leaves one thinking that neither of them is really committed to the concept that the law actually DOES invalidate the order of the FSC. Then, the application by the majority, a bare majority of five justices, deserted by two justices who agreed a violation existed, of an irrational remedy, which is based on an unnecessary and irrational reading of the relevant statutes (after what was, at least, a reasonable decision to that point), weakens what might have been a very acceptable 7 - 2 or 6 - 3 result.

Finally, of course, the fact that the fault line dividing the Court on this issue turns out to run along the ideological division between the committed conservative justices, and the more liberally-oriented justices, reminds everyone of the result in 1876, when the 8-7 decisions of the Electoral Commission followed similar ideological lines. Ammunition for those who think that the result was ‘fixed’; grist for the Democratic mill for the next four years.

CyberPundit, the argument is legally naive because it assumes a fact not in evidence: that the use of multiple election methods in differing counties is NOT a violation of the equal protection clause.

As I have noted in my review of the opinions, my read of the majority opinion is that it is a strong hint that statewide elections using multiple systems with differing results as regards ‘undervotes’ or ‘overvotes’ is unconstitutional. The issue isn’t decided because it wasn’t germaine to the case, but the statement in the majority opinion which I bolded in my analysis of the opinion of Justice Stevens appears to indicate that is the opinion of the ‘author’.

In short, it isn’t sufficient to argue against a claim of violation of the constitution by saying: but we’ve never said that before. After all, there is a first time for everything.

RTFirefly at least attempted to show a logical analogy to other presumably permissible and similar concepts. Justice Stevens’ only attempt at this is reference to the ‘reasonable doubt’ standard. GREAT example, Justice, really great.

My opinion of his analysis is now posted. Justice Stevens and Justice Ginsburg would be all hot to trot on this if it showed disparate impact on minorities in precisely this way; their refusal to apply such analysis here is weak at best (non-existent is my word for it) and in the case of Justice Ginsburg, not even an assertion that there is no violation, only that she doesn’t think it worth the effort of the Court to look at it since it isn’t ‘substantial’ enough.

OK but suppose Gore challenged the current Florida election results on 14th amendment grounds would the courts rule in his favour? Why not?

Sure but if you are departing from past standards is the middle of an election the right time to do it? If the court is saying that the other potential equal protection violations can be fixed later why not do the same for the handcount standards problem. It is the discrepancy that I find troubling. It seems the court is saying that one violation (favouring Gore) should be fixed instantly while the others(favouring Bush) can wait. Now if the court is applying past standards that would be fine. But if the court is actually making a departure and being stricter than in the past then it seems a very bad time to do it. And IIRC most legal commentators did find it surprising that the SC even granted cert. so it certainly does seem a move towards stricter standards.

DSYoungEsq writes:

Now, let us suppose that, in fact, both reasons are valid and would be agreed to by the Court (I do not assert that are). By this argument, then SCOTUS could rule on either the 14[sup]th[/sup] Amendment argument, or the Article II argument (or, of course, it could break the rule and rule on both).

If, however, it chose to rule on only the one argument or the other, would this not open the way for a future Court to state, “Although this argument has been presented before the Court, it has not, in fact, been ruled on, and we therefore rule that…”? Does it not make sense that the Court would state in such circumstances, “Although either argument is in fact sufficient to support this decision[sup]1[/sup], we rule according to the argument that…”?

[sup]1[/sup][sub]This assumes that the decision would be the same in all essentials regardless of what argument was accepted; again, this assumption is made for the sake of argument, not as an assertion of fact.[/sub]

I hope you slaved over that for some law journal or something, because really…we’re not worthy.

stoid

The above is probably irrefutable, but let me just make sure.

First, can the decision be justified on the grounds that, even though legal votes have been missed in the hand recount, they were not missed in the machine recount, and that the overlooked legal votes, absent undervotes of questionable legality, have already been shown to be insufficient to give Gore the election, so Gore isn’t prejudiced? Or has the Supreme Court openly admitted that at least some of the undervotes are definitely legal?

Second, will the Florida voters’ “full participation in the process” of electing the president qualify as a “compelling state interest” in discarding legitimate votes? You state that Florida can still meaningfully participate after Dec. 12, and apparently Thomas agrees with you, but surely there’s some deadline after which the Florida electors can’t participate anymore. Could the Court could have found that the recount couldn’t be completed by that time, and thus calling it off served a “compelling state interest?”

<Memo to self: Stop arguing with DSYoungEsq about legal questions. Or anything at all, really.>
Honest question: In light of the appearance of ideological partisanship that this decision leaves, what concerns, in your opinion, should we have regarding future SCOTUS nominees?

This is not how I understoood the majority opinion’s response to this issue. I would sum it up as follows:

In the case of the elections that are conducted by the separate counties, each county is looked at as an entity to itself. Each county must in its own conduct treat all citizens equally. But we can accept the fact that there may be differences between the different counties, that arise from the fact that each has its governance given to its own governing body.

However, the principle of Equal Protection still requires that a single governing (or election) body cannot distinguish between citizens in different areas. This causes a problem with this recount. Because it is being conducted by the state judiciary, as part of a challenge to a statewide contest, they cannot distinguish between different areas that are part of their same recount under their supervision.

Having said this, I will reiterate that I am more inclined to Justice Ginsburg’s perspective regarding all these issues. However, it is clear to me that what I’ve written is what the majority was saying. (If I get a chance, I will cite the relevent words from the decision).

Here’s where I took it from:

I may be expanding on this a bit, but it appears to me to be saying something along the lines that I outlined.

Applause to DSYoung for a better-reasoned opinion than any of the Justices’!

For the record, I’d vote to confirm you on the federal bench right now – a few years in district court, a few in circuit court… and who knows? :slight_smile:

  • Rick

Since, as has already been pointed out, the entire Florida voting mechanism was without common standard from county to county (actually the entire country, for that matter). Couldn’t the supreme court ruling be used to argue that the entire election process was unconstitutional?

No, the majority ruling made it clear that they were creating a special law under the guise of Equal Protection that would apply to this election only. Kennedy and/or O’Connor were careful to say that they were not intending to set a precedent, because the affected legal situation was “complicated”.

That was dishonest not only intellectually but morally. Stevens was right.

I thought of this too, but it’s really a fight for another day, since the case before the USSC was about the recount, not the issues that you bring up.

No fair! DSyoungesq. starts a debating post about the intricacy of the law. He’s a lawyer, fer cryin out loud, and the rest of us are merely brilliant!

On the other hand, I have yet to see the dreaded phrase “…recount after recount after recount…”.

Still, not quite cricket, is it, now? Not the done thing, don’t you know? Start a “debate” in a subject where you are the only acknowledged expert…

Hmmmmmm. Could start a thread for debating about “King Kong style hot monkey love”. Sort of even things out.