no! No! Don't count the votes! Anything but that!

Great Debates
1

hehehehheh

I’m kinda torn, actually. Being the rabid partisan that I am, with absolutely NO desire for Bush to have a presidency that even looks legitimate, I’m afeered that somehow this will still come out with him having more votes. That would suck.

On the other hand, ya gotta love it. Just for the entertainment value, the gasp factor.

And I stand by what I said in another thread: under no circumstances whatsoever will Al Gore be our president this time. (The legislature will stop it, then Congress will accept their electors)

He is only pursuing it now to legitimize his fight…if the votes come out for him, it bails his ass out of this mess for next time.

So. Who is going to count the other 64 counties? Can they? Will they? Will Bush run straight to the US Supremes screaming bloody murder? Predictions, anyone?

stoid
very amused

2

Shit! I had 45 seconds in the office pool!

3

I haven’t read the decision yet, but my guess is that the U.S. Supreme Court will toss the whole Florida decision lock, stock, and barrel.

4

I’ll buy that for a dollar.

But perhaps DS Y can help us on this one: Why? On what grounds? How is this a federal matter for them to decide? It looks to me like it would require some tortured logic to do so…not to mention some amazing speed!

5

No NO! Don’t count the absentee votes in Martin and Seminole County! Anything but that!

6

You sincerely are amused? Should the election of our next president be little more than cheap entertainment?

Or, despite claiming to be a Dem, are you in fact an anarchist, or actually a Republican, favoring anything that paralyzes government into inaction?

I am disappointed by the entire process, as well as the way it is conducted and reported as tho it were some kind of a sporting event. And I don’t think I would have to think to hard to come up with ways I would rather have the resources thrown at this melee expended. Yeah, my cynical self acknowledges the possibility that it is just a bullshit popularity contest that really doesn’t matter, but I prefer convincing myself of a different mindfuck.

And, I would prefer the Dems get their shit together, and figure out how to minimize the potential damage the Repubs can cause over the next 2-4 years, and maximize their own chances in 2002, instead of flailing around in this manner.

7

Should Florida decide to bypass the wishes of the voters of Florida, I hope other state legislatures decide there is nothing stopping them from appointing electors different from the votes of the state.

8

Oh come now, if anything has been made clear in this election it is that NEITHER party has any allegiance AT ALL to the “wishes of the voters,” particularly those of Florida. However, that is indeed one heckuva can o’ worms.

9

Haven’t read the ruling yet (their web site is, apparently, crashing from overhits), but from what I’ve heard on TV, a few thoughts come to mind:

  • Deadlines, schmedlines. They don’t even respect their own imposed deadlines, let alone the ones in Florida law.

  • They reverse numerous election standards as they are proscribed by the Florida Legislature, and ultimately order hand-counts of undercounted ballots in every Florida county. Then, on the KEY ISSUE, where their judgement was needed most of all – what standard to use – they punt and defer to the vague “where the ballot shows the clear intent of the voter” in the Florida law.

So, we’re back to subjective, varying standards, times sixty-something. I think that was rather cowardly of the court.

And if anyone tells me they didn’t have the authority to impose such a standard, may I ask how they had the authority to change so many other things about Florida election law?

– I can’t wait to read the ruling. Because I thought Judge Sauls was pretty detailed in his explanation of why he decided with the Bush camp. That means they will have to have been pretty detailed in their response – at least I would think so.

Won’t it be fascinating if Jeb Bush or Kathryn Harris simply defies the court’s order? Or some of the canvassing boards? What’s the penalty for contempt of the Supreme Court? And regardless of whether people face penalties, would it affect the political outcome of their defiance and/or inaction?
I still defer back to my OP in my “How can Gore be the next prez?” thread. The Republicans hold control in the Florida Legislature, the U.S. House and, arguably, in the U.S. Supreme Court. One of those bodies will make the definitive, final ruling here.

And if you didn’t believe before that every single bit of this has and will fall exactly on party lines, surely you believe it now, don’t you?

10

Damn, this is a hoot! YEEEEEE-haw!

I am swayed by the argument that the Seminole decision is about as fair as can be, the people who applied for absentee ballots did no wrong, the onus should not be on them. Fair enough.

The Fla. Supremes decision is equally valid, for the same reason.

Did anybody notice that the first recount had a number of counties who had virtually no change whatever? Whaddaya wanna bet those counties demographics reflect more money?

Why do the less affluent counties use those crummy voting machines, which thier own inventors admit aren’t all that great? Because they can’t afford the good stuff.

Thus, a lower economic status is a risk factor in having your vote negated. OK, money talks. I’ll live with that as best I can, but I’ll be damned if I’ll let it vote! without a fight! I don’t think that makes me a partisan. I think that makes me a patriot!

“To your tents, O Israel!”

11

These are interesting times.

12

Actually, the way I heard it, this isn’t quite the case. The more populous counties tend to have the older voting machines precisely because they had the wherewithal to switch technologies earlier. By the time the other counties could afford to change voting methods, the technology had evolved to a more reliable incarnation. By that time, however, the counties who had already upgraded (to punch cards) weren’t about to shell out the money to upgrade again.

If this is true, it’s almost directly the opposite of what you say above. And not a little ironic.

13

About damn time - this is the only real way to come close to seeing what the real will of We the People was. Call it the Democratic position if you will, but it’s also more importantly the democratic one. The final error level may not be reducible to zero, but it has to be reduced to either less than the victory margin or to as low a level as reasonably possible.

Yes, if Bush wins, and he well might, I’ll be disappointed about that but finally proud of the fairness of the process, in my larger capacity as a citizen.

Bush and the Republicans shouldn’t complain, either. This process has a good chance of showing that he really did win Florida as cleanly as anyone can figure out, it will eliminate all the hangover about Harris’ conflict of interest, the PBC ballot design, his recount riot in Miami, and all of that ad nauseam. If he wins, he’ll have the legitimacy he would otherwise lack. If he loses, he has the chance to admit it gracefully and come back next time.

14

Why oh WHY doesn’t anyone listen to MY solution:

Gore. Bush. STEEL CAGE MATCH. It’s perfect!

15

I urge one and all, particularly my partisan friends on the other side, to go to http://www.flcourts.org and read the ruling.

Pay particular attention to the Chief Justice’s dissenting opinion, which begins on Page 40. It very eloquently points out all the reasons why everyone, regardless of their political persuasion, should be concerned with this ruling and its ramifications.

Reading the majority opinion, it appears that this is a court that has very little trouble with wearing the activist label. It seems very comfortable looking at issues in broad, general ways, and getting into philosophical concepts. Strict constructionists these ain’t.

For the reasons outlined by Chief Justice Wells, however, I would bet dimes to donuts that you will see the U.S. Supreme Court do its version of “WWF Smackdown” on this decision before Tuesday.

If that occurs, it will be the quickest that body has probably ever done anything.

But U.S. Code is clear. Electors must be in place by Dec. 12. Yet another reason why what the Fla. SC has just ordered is so incredible.

These hand counts will be, by necessity:

- Done extremely fast

We’ve moved out of the realm where the Florida Supreme Court can move deadlines willy-nilly. Now we’re coming up on federal and constitutional deadlines.

- Done with the knowledge of what count is needed to overturn the election result

Stop and think about how mind-numbingly unfair that is, in comparison to the way our elections are typically undertaken.

**- Conducted by partisans who have a potential stake in one outcome or another. **

These aren’t just people who voted for one candidate or the other. These are people who are registered members of a particular party. In fact, I believe in all cases canvassars are judges or county commissioners, so they have also accepted campaign funds from their particular party. (Perhaps not the circuit judges, although many in my state are political party members or supporters.)

Why are some so willing to dismiss that on something so important, but accept the appearance of impropriety being an exclusionary concept in other aspects of their lives?

- Done with standards that vary from place to place.

For example, in Palm Beach County, they said if you punched through all the rest of your ballot but only made a dent on or near a presidential candidate, you clearly knew what you were supposed to do, your ballot was clearly positioned properly; that’s not a vote.

In Broward County, their standard was almost a polar opposite. There, the standard was if you voted a straight party ticket, then had any kind of indentation near a presidential candidate of that party, clearly it was your intention, judging by the rest of the ballot, to vote for that candidate. (Apparently canvassars there have never heard of ticket-splitting or not voting in a particular race.)

All of the above is an invitation to inaccuracy. It does not move the process closer to fairness.

Watch MSNBC or whatever network you like that shows these recounts in process. Pay attention to who is doing what for whom. (This means you, wring)

Then come back and give your opinion on whether the process was objective, nonpartisan and impartial.

16

Thoroughly. I have shed real tears over it, sobbed in fact. But this is now theatre of the absurd and I have to laugh.

Well, sure, it OUGHT to be a lot of things that it isn’t. But cheap entertianment is what it is, let’s enjoy it while we can, shall we?

Damn! You’ve found me out!

I hear you and I agree. If we’re lucky, the votes will come out for Al, Bush will fight the whole way to avoid us knowing that, the FL will override the votes and send Bush electors along with Gore electors, and the Republican Congress will accept the Bush slate, making Bush our new chief executive. Then, a large number of Americans will be completely revolted by this turn of events, and the Dems won’t have to try very hard at all to get their votes. In fact, people may be so disgusted by this that they elect Al decisively in '04, or more deliciously, Hillary!

stoid

17

Interesting times, indeed! Sometimes I feel like this whole election thing is a great drama (or professional wrestling match)…where things are happening for the dramatic effect more than anything else. (“Well, won’t it be interesting if we have Gore almost down for the count after receiving blow after blow from the circuit courts…And then have the Florida Supreme Court came in with a 4-3 decision to save him…But, wait…Here, come the U.S. Supremes…They’re going up to the top rope…”)

And, I was just reconciling myself over the last few days to Gore conceding and the Bush Presidency becoming official.

18

I haven’t finished reading the decision yet, but I just wanted to point out that in their decision, they keep harping “Counting the legal votes”, and then turn their back on defining what a legal vote was. Some kind of court that is.

19

I suppose the whole thing might be funny in a way, but I can’t help thinking that we’ve now reached the political version of DEFCON 1. I don’t see how we’re going to have anything but bitterness and acrimony for the next two years.

20

Since we can’t agree on who came in first or second, why don’t we give it to the guy who came in THIRD?