“ Other paths for justice”. Sounds like a dog whistle for mob rule, vigilantism, or trial by media. I’m not a fan.
People are free to do what they like and discuss what they like with whom they like. Personally, if I am being asked, I would say that the justice system is the best place to accuse someone of a crime.
If they choose to discuss it publically and make it a media thing than I think it is ok for me to share my opinion.
Who decides if it’s honest? You and I seem to disagree.
Since you are asking me, I think it’s likely a mistake. If she is being honest I won’t say she is doing, but I think she is making a mistake if she is seeking justice. I think a better choice would be to file charges.
If she is being honest, and her goal is not justice, but something else, like sell books, hurt Trump’s chances for election, etc. than I do think she is doing wrong, ethically. I don’t think that’s likely, though.
Except you did participate. You chose to relay the account of Ms. Carroll in the way you did. I believe you did so in a way that misrepresented her account in an effort to discredit her (whether on your own or because that’s how the story had wrongly been conveyed to you). And then you criticized those who do things to discourage sexual assault victims from coming forward.
Whether you are declining to defend your apparently misleading account of the assault and Ms. Carroll’s actions since then out of preference or inability scarcely matters. What matters is that you gave a still-unsupported account of a sexual assault and aftermath that seems to be at odds with the accuser’s account and that makes the accuser look bad, and then lamented the fact that sexual assault victims are sometimes unwilling to come forward and wondered why that is the case.
Carroll’s account definitely has the ring of truth.
Many rape victims feel conflicted because they think they should have done more to stop the assault, and feel foolish and stupid for “letting” it progress to the point it did. She knows that trying on lingerie for a creeper was not a good decision, and she’s probably beat herself up endlessly for it, and blamed herself on some level for her being in the position she was in, even while knowing that she was IN NO WAY at fault for the assault. That would make her very unlikely to want to report it, knowing that others would judge her the same way she likely felt herself. I can totally get that. I know MANY women who have’t reported assaults for this very reason.
If she were to have made up an attack, I am POSITIVE she would have made up a tighter story that didn’t put herself in this position of being second-guessed. Why would she have made up a story that people could pick holes in and accuse her of bringing it on herself? She could have just as easily come up with a story that had her completely “blameless” in the eyes of skeptics.
That, coupled with her jeopardizing her livelihood at the time had she reported it, and having reported it to 2 friends at the time it occurred, is pretty convincing to me. Sure, it’s not proof, but it’s highly persuasive.
So would you have believed her if she’d come out with the same story 20 years ago? Or would you be seizing on something else to justify doubt? Be honest.
And care to explain your rationale for asking this?
Maybe because she’s a woman whose had the misfortune of encountering more than one jerk in her life? I’m mean, what could you possibly be hinting at?
“Birnbach said she remembers Carroll “laughing” as she told the story. She said repeatedly that Trump pulled down her tights. Birnbach said at first she was laughing, too,”
I’m not a fan of those things either – considering the general powerlessness of victims of prominent men, I don’t think those are likely. Trump has suffered nothing despite over a dozen credible allegations and his own admissions of assault and violations of consent. Our society still treats victims/accusers like shit, and you’re just piling on. You can share your opinion, but by piling on in the way you are, you’re making it harder for girls and women in the future.
There’s no way to know with certainty at this time… which means we shouldn’t be denigrating and dismissing the party with significantly less power (i.e. the one who’s not the president). Or accusing her of lying with absolutely no evidence.
If your daughter had such an experience, and accused a powerful man, would you be happy with strangers calling her a liar with no evidence?
She’s chosen to make her accusation in the media and publicly rather than through the justice system. Deciding and debating whether or not we think she has told the truth is perfectly proper under these circumstances.
You’ve presented no evidence she’s not telling the truth. By making such accusations with absolutely no evidence, you’re making it harder for women in the future.
Are you quoting a contemporaneous account to suggest that it did not happen, or that Trump did, in fact, screw a woman in a dressing room without her consent, but it simply isn’t serious enough to care about?
Because I don’t understand how you can quote this confirmation as anything other than evidence that Trump, did, in fact put his penis in a woman without her consent, as verified by two people who were told at the time.
Interesting - that IS what the MeToo movement is about. Victims are “madder than hell and they are not going to take it anymore”, so no, they are not always reporting to police, who have (historically) treated these people very, very badly, they are telling their stories how THEY want to - not how other people may wish. They are being loud, and using platforms available to them to be loud.
This is grabbing the bull by the horns, do you really not see that at all?
Exactly. The point is victims and survivors can tell their stories however they wish, and we should celebrate that they come forward at all. In whatever way they find comfortable.
Maybe in the far future our society will actually be fair, and such folks won’t be treated like dogshit. Until then, we should be bending over backwards to make sure we’re as welcoming as possible for people to honestly tell their stories, in whatever way they see fit.
The military has as bad a history around sexual assaults as the Catholic priesthood has. Damn straight I have issues with both of them. They both are organizations that profess to hold higher standards than the civilian population and both fail to live up to those standards in utterly disgusting ways.
The two of you are not everybody and do not represent everybody.
Ever hear of blaming the victim? You’re doing it. And it makes your concluding remarks irrelevant and nonsensical.
Though this may be true, you’ve lost any credibility to say it. Carroll did take action, and in a far more public way than almost anybody. She did so when the time was right for her. You do not get a say in her timing. You do not get a say in any part of her life, especially if you think she’s lying in the first place. You do not get to have it both ways.
I believe E. Jean Carroll called her friend to brag about the encounter ergo the laughing. Her friend Birnbach who was probably jealous or a militant feminist convinced Carroll that what was a consensual encounter was actually rape. Trump didn’t even wine and dine her and basically used her so Carroll became bitter and decided to call what happened as rape.
You know what, with no evidence this baseless supposition is simply trolling. This is a warning for trolling. And you are prohibited from posting further in this thread.
I see Bone’s moderation (and, FWIW, I don’t agree with it - yes, I understand that belongs elsewhere), so I hope I’m not out of bounds. But given this description of Lisa Birnbach, I think it’s only fair to describe her as she does on her website.
Her story is evidence, in and of itself. And in the vast majority of rape cases that’s all there will ever be. Are you suggesting that in the vast majority of rape cases, the victim is obligated to keep ēs mouth shut forever?
According to Muslim law, a woman must have the corroboration of four men who have seen the penetration with their own eyes in order for a charge of rape to be confirmed. Otherwise the woman will be charged with adultery.
Sounds like there are some folks here who would be more comfortable with that standard.
I like you a lot, but I’m kind of against this. The whole climbing up about of the abyss of chaos and anarchy, and living as a Society of civilized human beings who may disagree with disapprove of and conflict with each other without killing each other and being the better because of it depends on the societal compact of not taking things into your own hands.