Advice needed re: boring Dungeon Master (long)

In My Humble Opinion
1

OK, here’s the deal. A bunch of us recently started a new D&D campaign with a great, very experienced DM. Our games are marathon (12+ hours) sessions about once a month held at our house. We have the perfect setup: two conference tables, a dry erase easel for keeping track of initiative and the like, miniatures, modular terrain boards, dungeon pieces (try www.hirstarts.com to see what I’m talking about) and a large hex grid. The group decides on the food and everyone chips in.

All the interest in our game led others to want to DM, but instead of messing up our current campaign, they decided to share another.

So we started an alternate campaign for the between times. The first DM was okay. He would’ve gotten better over time definitely, and would probably be excellent, but it’s the second DM that’s the problem.

For one, he can no longer play those marathon sessions (his wife doesn’t like it), so all his games take place on weeknights and more frequently (and at his house), which doesn’t have all those special features that makes it easier to run a game (we won’t carry all that over there because it can get torn up).

OK, all that is a minor annoyance, along with the fact that his kid can be loud and his dog can be annoying, but all of that would be easily ignorable if his game wasn’t so…damn…boring.

This DM is a min/max player for one. His love of the game revolves around the numbers, and he has not the least little bit of imagination. Seriously, his only concern is whether this or that is in the rules or can be done, without regards to whether it progresses the story.

For example, one of the fighters wanted to use the time they were resting to make some clubs, so that everyone would be more effective against a bunch of skeletons. He said it would take a week to make three! Three! Apparently, that’s the number of swords a weaponsmith can make in a week. Even though the player kept insisting that all he wanted to do was cut down tree limbs and whittle out a handle. Nothing fancy. All of it should’ve been able to be done in a day, two at most. It took a lot of arguing to convince the DM to compromise.

Another example: when my little goblin thief (I love my character) wants to search, the DM always asks, “Walls, floors or ceiling?” “Um, I just want to search. The entire room.” I don’t care how long it takes or what rolls he needs to make. Just do it and quit bogging the game down.

My husband relayed last night’s game (since I blessedly wasn’t there). They started at 7:15. Fought 8 skeletons in a battle they had to leave off from the previous week then decided to rest so the party can raise. During the four days of resting/raising levels, they had FIVE random encounters. By the fifth one, the players were really and truly tired of them and hid. That was it for the night. They didn’t accomplish anything in the three hours they played.

This guy is completely oblivious to anything around him. He doesn’t poll his players. He doesn’t read the boredom cues (incessant dice rolling is one of the big giveaways as is frequent yawning), so he never ever changes his DMing style to suit his group. I don’t think he can. He literally has no imagination. He uses random encounters not to add spice and unpredictability to the game (I detest random encounters, but that’s another thread), but because he can’t think of what else to do.

He loves the game. He truly does love it, but I don’t think I’m truly conveying the sheer boredom that sitting through one of his game sessions invokes.

So my question is: how do we (and it’s several of us who are bored stiff, not just me) get out of his game without hurting his feelings? The other DMs kind of feel obligated, but it’s actually turning some people (including the other DMs) off of the game. He’s already posted a message to our private message board suggesting a game next week.

2

Oh, no! You just realized that you can’t come on Monday! That’s when your book club meets! No problem, Tuesday is great, except, oops, this week you have to bake a cake for this office party. Wednesday is okay, except every other week your White Wolf game meets. Thursdays you have to give the cat a bath. Gee, actually weeknights just aren’t very good for you. It’s really too bad he isn’t able to run on the weekends. Oh, well. You’ll let him know when your schedule changes.

This works even better when the whole group is out to sabotage the game, because everyone doesn’t have to have an excuse for every night–just make that most of the party won’t be able to make it on any given night.

Passive agressiveness: the cause of, and solution to, all gaming problems.

3

There’s no way to do this without hurting some feelings.

As a DM that just shut down a game that had run two years because it had become boring, I have to say that there’s no easy way to do this. I had to just let the players know that the game was no longer headed in a direction that interested me, and that other priorities had come up in my life.

There’s a phrase that Neil Gaiman used once, regarding an artist that he didn’t want to work with anymore. Something like “He was like Jimi Hendrix playing with the Beatles.” Both great artists, but their styles would never mesh. This is the approach that I tried to take with my players; the idea that, while they were a great group, our playing styles didn’t match very well.

Other than that, you might want to suggest that he might co-DM with someone else, someone more imaginative but with less of a grasp of the rules, if such a person were available.

Good luck.

4

This is a tricky one (and I speak as a man who once had to break it to a close friend that he had body odour).

My group also play all weekend with great enthusiasm. We take it in turn to DM. (Single guys play monthly, married bi-monthly).
So along comes a new guy, who joins the group, and offers to run.
He tells us it will be an epic.
We assure him that it will be fine if it’s just a straightforward plot with some random encounters. After all, he is showing willing.

Well it was awful. The plot was labyrinthine and incomprehensible, unless you knew that two Gods were taking a personal interest in our 6th level group.
The DM decided that one player (a cleric) would be told (secretly) many clues. So we sat around while at regular intervals the DM and the cleric left the room to have a private briefing. Unfortunately the cleric thought there was only one God involved, so couldn’t help us. Even when we finished the task, we didn’t realise it! The DM had to tell us…

Some other ‘highlights’:

  • we hear noises coming from a pit just off the road. Cautiously, I use Clairvoyance :cool: to see whather it’s a trap. The DM tells me it’s a cow. Fine - the Druid and the Paladin decide we need to rescue it.
    It’s a Gorgon.
    The Paladin fails his save and is turned to stone.
    The DM looks worried, and asks if I can cast ‘Stone to Flesh’. No, dear, I’m 6th level, not 12th. :rolleyes:
    So immediately a passing trader offers us a ‘Stone to Flesh’ potion. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
    The Paladin fails his system shock and dies.
    (We don’t mind dying if we’re unlucky, or careless. But the Paladin is rather depressed at this point.)
    Oh look! here is another trader with a ‘Raise dead’ potion. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

You get the idea…

To this day, the DM still thinks it was a brilliant dungeon.

So what can you do?

Well it depends on your friendship outside the group, and on the group dynamics.
Is there a ‘senior figure’ who could break the news to this DM?
How about copying an article on good DMing out of a magazine, and sending it?
What about writing a joint dungeon?
You could try not going to the boring sessions, but people usually find out - then it tends to get unpleasant.
Sometimes people who are oblivious to social cues need to be told fairly bluntly. (To be fair, this DM doesn’t realise what’s going on - and is probably writing a dungeon that he would enjoy).

Hope this helps.

5

You have a problem opposite of the one I am facing- I can’t get anyone else to DM, or when they do it’s so incredibly boring and superficial it’s not worth the time to roll up a character.

My suggestion would be to have someone approach him diplomatically (you are friends, right? you want to keep the players together?) and offer to co-DM or to play some NPC roles to help him with his “problem.” MrVisible had a good suggestion; maybe you can step up and point out the things that make the game less enjoyable for all involved.

Another suggestion? Have someone else write the story for him, or use one of the many modules already written.

Throatshot, your goblin thief example was not a good one. Traps can and often are hidden specifically, and it takes time to do a good search. Requiring you to state where you are searching prevents the “I wasn’t standing there” argument when the trap goes off. Besides, you may get to the treasure first!

Boredom in gaming is a two-way street. What are you doing as a player to make it entertaining? Have you talked about this with the other players? Do you really want to try to work this out, or are there other issues involved? If you don’t plan to be a friend to this DM it’s unfair to make him prepare a game that you plan to blow off. Nothing personal, Podkayne, but your advice sucks- at least be truthful and tell him you are no longer interested. If not, and he still plays in your other game, you had best watch your character’s back- personal insults like this are not forgotten by some.

Maybe some paintball would help?

6

As MrVisible so wisely stated, there’s no good way to do this without hurting some feelings. We had a similar experience with our gaming group. The DM was absolutely terrible. He’d kill players almost arbitrarily, he’d screw up rules interpretations, and worst of all, his NPC that he was running (to beef up the party… we only had four players at the time and needed some extra combat muscle) somehow mysteriously JUST HAPPENED to be on the other side of the room every time something bad happened to the party.

True encounter:
Player #1: My halfling thief walks over to check the Big Scary Iron Door for traps.
Me: My dwarven paladin stands about five feet behind him, greataxe hefted in both hands in case he gets jumped when the door opens.
(The rest of the party was scattered about ten feet behind my character.)
DM: Jericho (his NPC) goes to check out the staircase at the other end of the room. Player #1, roll your Search check.
Player #1: (rolls) I got a 21.
DM: You don’t find any traps.
Player #1: I pick the lock on the door. I rolled a… (rolls) 23.
DM: Uh-oh… When the door opens, the area within twenty feet of the door is doused in alchemist’s fire from nozzles hidden around the arch of the doorway. You each take 25 points of damage, unless you make a Reflex save.
…
(after damage is rolled and two characters end up in the Great Dungeon in the Sky)
…
DM: Jericho walks back over to the remainder of the party. “Bummer!”, he says. “That trap looked horrific!”

The same thing happened later in the same dungeon (Forge of Fury, btw)… a black dragon surfaced from the pool it was hiding in, raked the party with its acid breath… all except for Jericho, who again miraculously managed not to be standing near the rest of the party at the time.

He didn’t last much longer. About three months after this little brouhaha, I’d had enough. (He was also the type of DM where you couldn’t question any of his calls… any time you asked a question, his reply was, “Don’t you trust me?” Yeah, we would if you’d be a fair DM now, chucklehead…) I sent him an email, listed the group’s concerns with his DMing style and asked him whether he’d be willing to make changes to accomodate. He elevated it into a mudslinging match and began slamming the players, not just as RPGers but also ‘your momma’ kind of stuff. We fired him the next day.

Longwinded story, the point of which being: If you have a problem with the DM, tell him flat out. List specific areas of concern, and try not to make it personal (i.e., say, “I think the way you handle random encounters is extremely tough on the party and here’s the change I’d suggest…”, rather than, “You suck and we all hate you.”). If he decides to take it personally, then that becomes his problem – speaking as a DM, I always want critiques of my DMing style. Part of my job as a DM is to present what I consider to be a good, entertaining game… but the other part is to present what the PLAYERS consider a good entertaining game.

So I’d say tell him what your concerns are, and let him have whatever reaction he wants to. If he gets pissy and refuses to make changes, then tell him he’s no longer welcome to DM. It’s a hard-line stance to take, but in the end, the entire group will end up happier for it. (Why spend lots of time playing a game when you’re not really enjoying it?)

7

It is a ready-made module, and in fact, it’s probably quite an interesting one.

You’re right. I wasn’t as clear as I should’ve been. This was for every five foot section of corridor/part of the room. It’s easy enough to say, “I start on this side and work my way around,” without having to say, “I search the walls. The floor. The ceiling. OK, I move up five feet and search the walls. The floor. The ceiling.” Then, he can stop at the point of a trap and say, “Make a reflex save,” or “You take X damage.”

You are correct in that I could probably do more, but in this particular case, I’m not really sure what. I would like to continue playing with him (as both players), and I’ve hesitated to say anything because he shouldn’t have to stop DM’ing for the people who do enjoy his game. As much as I appreciate Podkayne’s advice, I’m not fond of passive-aggressive strategies.

I’m thinking it would be best if I just sent him an email with the truth: his style of DM’ing doesn’t fit with my style of playing.

I’ve also asked if the mods can edit my post to remove the identifying information, but I’m not sure if they will do that.

Too hot. I only play in the spring and fall.

Zanshin, wow. Your post is very wise. I’m going to read it again just to soak it all in.

8

Okay, in retrospect, my advice does seem pretty cold, especially the group sabotage thing (which of course you shouldn’t do if there are players in the group who are enjoying the game) but hopefully the “cause of, and solution to” bit was taken with the humor intended.

But, honestly, that’s what you do in gaming: you vote with your feet. If you don’t like the game, and you’ve tried making helpful suggestions, and things aren’t getting any better, then you find other ways to occupy your time.

You can tell the GM "I’m sorry, but I’m not finding your game very interesting. Thanks for running, but I’m not going to play any more, " and in all likelyhood hurt his feelings. Or, when he tries to schedule a game, whoops, you always seem to be busy (subtext: you have something to do that’s more important to you than coming to his game.) When you’re always busy on the night he wants to run, then slowly and gently it will dawn on him that you’ve lost interest. You just have to perfect the art of turning him down kindly without leading him on. Never say, “Next week I’ll be there for sure!” Your message will be clear enough, without being a boot to the head. If he asks, “Geez, are you ever going to show up again?” that means that finally the little light has come on, and that’s when you should give him the, “Well, jeepers, I’m awfully busy, and well, I don’t think our gaming styles really matched, so the group is probably better off without me,” speech. (Another point of etiquette: When you start skipping out, give him permission to throw your character down a hole, rather than trailing it along with the party indefinitely, played by someone else or as an NPC.)

Just so I don’t sound like the Evil Player from Hell, I will add that I’ve gotten a lot of good results out of GMs through positive feedback. Watch for instances where the GM shows a behavior that you like, then tell him. “I really liked the way you ad-libbed that scene in the market. The pearl-seller was a really believable character, and it was a clever way to drop a clue about the hidden entrance to the castle!” Give him some encouragement when he breaks away from the style you don’t like and inches toward something that’s more interesting for the players so he’ll consider trying it again in the future. Most players tend to give only negative feedback (I’m guilty of that myself, sometimes) or non-specific praise for things the GM doesn’t really have much control over ("Wow! The fight with the beholder was totally cool! Especially when I rolled three natural twenties in a row, and then it failed the save against Derek’s fireball and took 5d6 right in the kisser! ") so GMs are really flattered when you praise them for something specific that they did, and it gives them a great boost in confidence.

But, it sounds like throatshot’s game is pretty well tanked, though, so I doubt it’s salvagable by those means.

If you’re going to tell the guy that you’re quitting, I personally think it’s a little cold to do it by email–and it’s super-easy for people misconstrue what is said by email. If you are still planning to game with this guy, you need to tread carefully. Doing it by email makes it a big production–it implies that you’re going to drop a bomb on him that you didn’t have the heart to do face-to-face.

9

Thanks for the compliment, throatshot, and happy to help. (Wise? ME? I think that’s the first time I’ve ever been accused of that! :slight_smile: ) It sucks having to tell a friend you don’t like his DMing style, but at least in our group, I’ve found that open communication and being honest and direct has been the best policy.

10

Want to find a better GM? Find a better game… D&D has got to be the only RPG I’ve played that actively discourages sensible thought :smiley:

Okay, for real advice, you’ve got to tell the person what’s wrong with what they’re running. Personally, I think random encounters do not a game make-- neither do NPCs who mysteriously never get hurt. (Especially if that’s your GMs “clue” that the NPC has danger sense so you should always stick right underneath his arse in order to be safe.)

Don’t be cruel, but don’t be afraid to be blunt. GMing is a skill like any other, and it needs to be learned.

11

If you want a confrontation, all the standard confrontation rules apply: say “I feel bored by all these random encounters”, not “You’re so boring!”. Bring it up at neutral time, not when you are angry. Make specific concrete suggestions.

If you want to have fun, suicide. Just QUIT checking for traps. Engage in long conversations , in charecter, with your fellow players (we once had this hour long debate about casting “know alignment” on infants). Quit being smart; nothing bogs down gameplay like smart, careful players. Get into barroom brawls. Make fun of the old man who obviously knows important information. Find your lowest stat and make that the focus of your charecter.

A min-maxer wil go crazy i nthe face of all this. He may back out of the game. If not, he will learn to adapt.

12

The trick is to give feedback in a way that tries to sound constructive. Thank him for running the game, and tell him that you have some suggestions to help make it more enjoyable.

In your conversation, you might want to note the following hints:

(1) Express everything in terms of YOUR feelings, not his actions.
WRONG: Your style of slogging through detailed rules is boring.
BETTER: When we get bogged down in rules, I feel bored.

The trick is to avoid him getting defensive about it. You’re expressing how you feel; he can’t challenge that, in a way that he could say, “No, the rules aren’t boring, the rules are neat.”

(2) Think of yourself as a coach trying to improve his performance, rather than as an audience member who is going to write a critique.

(3) There are some articles on how to run a game. The old STAR WARS book was wonderful. Their main point: think of this as a movie. Keep the action going. Don’t stop or slow down to worry about rules.

  • In STAR WARS, if the heroes have to run through a closed door, they shoot the lock mechanism and it opens. If they need to seal a door against the oncoming storm troopers, they shoot the lock mechanism and it jams. There’s no “rules” about this – what happens is that the story keeps moving.

  • We play because we enjoy the game. I can play the role of a thief without having to study in real life. A game that required me to describe in detail where I was searching in what order, would take all the fun out of it. The joy of the game systems is that they reduce complicated and time consuming actions to a quick dice roll so we can get on with it.
    Hope that’s helpful. If he’s a friend, you need to help coach him and BE a friend, not just jump ship and not be cruel or tactless.

13

Just a comment on DM ‘characters’:

If our party is a little short on numbers, we hire an NPC from a Guild (usually a Fighter).

Chain Mail, Long Sword, Long Bow - nothing fancy.
We sign a Guild agreement to look after him, and agree a fair share of treasure.
He takes a share of XP too.

But he is NOT one of the DM’s characters.

If he is, it is a bad situation, because the DM feels protective towards him (as the example above showed).

If a DM not only puts one of his characters into his dungeon, ** but gives it XP ** …
… leave the game (run, don’t walk).

D+D is about mutual entertainment and trust. Experience and treasure should be **earned **.

14

Thanks for all the great advice everyone!

Oh, and glee, not only is his character in the adventure, but he somehow just “happens upon” the secret doors no one else found or just “knows” that key piece of information necessary to advance the story.

15

Good point, glee. After the fiasco with our last DM, the way we handle NPCs in our party is by group consensus. For example, now that I’ve taken over DM duties, my character is still present with the party, but I take no control over his actions (unless it’s to prevent him from doing something out of character for his personality and alignment). The group as a whole (or, more often, one of the players will take him on) decides his actions in and out of combat. If he dies, I’ll be disappointed, but them’s the berries. NPCs should be cardboard cutouts, no more.

(O’course, I’m looking forward to getting out of the DM chair so I can play my character with personality and flair again, but so be it…)

16

I know you mean well, but I think putting your own character in is a recipe for unhappiness.
Have a stock character (like the one I mentioned above). Let him have minor interesting traits, like an interesting name, or a hobby (playing the bagpipes).

But you cannot feel the same about your own character being put in danger, whether by the party or by yourself as DM, as a one-off ‘monster’. Don’t do it!

I prefer the DM to give us information through witnesses, or old maps or rolls against non-weapon proficiencies.

  • " ‘Ancient History’ tells you that there is a legend of a secret door behind the statue" is good.
  • The DM’s character announcing he has ‘found’ the door (and wants to stand on the other side of the room while you open it :rolleyes: ) is patronising. ** Very patronising.**
17

LOL, from what some of you are describing, I would always be right next to the DM’s character. It seems the safest spot to be!

In our group of 6-8 we rotate DMs and games every few months or so to keep things interesting. The first guy who DM’ed was excellent, and ended every session with 2 parts.

The first part - “Ok, everyone tell me what you learned”. This is great for having the group put 1 and 1 together, give their general hunches, and it also allows you to see who was paying attention. Experience points were noted mentally by the DM for the players who were trying harder or being creative.

The second part - “Ok, what did you think?”. Now was everyone’s chance to bitch and compliment, if they hadn’t already snuck that into the first part. The DM asked every person what they thought of the session, if they had any suggestions to make it better, etc.

This two part method was then past on to each new DM, so the whole group could help them out with the rough spots. It doesn’t have to be personal attacks, it’s not like any of us did it for a living. Try to phrase it so that it seems like friendly advice from the whole group to make everything more enjoyable for everyone.

One last little DM tip you might offer him that I used every time, which I stole from the old Batman series. I call it the “And that’s where we stop” rule. Leave every game on a cliffhanger. If you know it’s getting close to the end of session, it’s the perfect time to leave the characters in a crazy situation where life or death is on the line! They love it, and they hate it, and they can’t wait to get back to the next session to find out what happens! I heard someone say that about shows once - it doesn’t matter too much if some of it sucks, as long as you finish with a bang.

18

Firstly, you have good roleplaying ideas.

Secondly, I heard someone say the above about something else once :eek: :slight_smile: :confused: :smiley: :cool:

19

My husband/GM used to make us write arguements for why we deserved roleplaying XP. Maybe if this guy could see what you are all actually doing, he could rise above the charts-and-tables aspect.

20

Personally, I despise cliffhangers, even in a good game. If you run a good game, I’ll be back the next week. If you run a crappy game, and then leave me dangling each week, you’re going to get complaints. I don’t love it and hate it, I just hate it.

Your players, of course, may vary.