Advice please: I need a new workout

[GomiBoy]

OK, so I’ve taken up rowing. What with the early mornings, getting shouted at by men I hardly know, losing pretty much every single Sunday morning for months, freezing my cojones off in January in London on the filthy stinky Thames, and ripping shreds off of my hands from the blades, it’s still quite fun and I’m getting in much better shape.

So what I am looking for is this - not being content with my current spot in the boat (novice #2 boat, position 3 in an 8) I want to get better and faster and everything. So I was hoping the wise people on the Dope, or at least the most bored, could recommend a workout programme to help me do this? Here’s my current 6-week programme, due to finish next week. Any rowers out there to offer any suggestions?

Technical Jargon-buster: a rowing machine is called an ‘ergo’; a ‘split’ is the time the ergo says it will take to row 500m, and the ‘rate’ is the stroke rate

Circuit warm-up for heavy weights, is 3 sets of 20 reps of each of these:
squat jumps, press-ups, sit-ups, burpees, dorsal raises, press-ups, sit-ups, squat thrusts

Mon & Wed - circuit + squats, leg presses, barbell power cleans, bench press, military press, bench row - 4 sets of 35 reps each, so low weight
Tue - Ergo castle 2x21 min, with rate = 22 for 5 minutes, 24 for 3 min, 26 for 2 min, 28 for 1 min, then reverse at a split of 1:55 or less; 5 min rest between pyramids
Thu - Ergo for 45 min @ rate 22
Fri - run 5-6 mi
Sat / Sun - either circuits + weight, ergo, or outing on the river for 2 hours

Wednesday I tested myself, and have cut 1:10 off my best 5k ergo test time, so I know it’s working, I just need more! Faster! Better!

Any recommendations? I should note that in addition to rowing races coming up in March, I’ve a couple of triathlons scheduled in the summer and some other cycle races and whatnot that I’d like to do, as well as some 10k runs, so endurance and cardio fitness is a lot more important to me than bulking up.

[tremorviolet]

My rowing coach isn’t a big believer in cross-training; he says there are no studies out there have ever proven that weights add anything to your erg score. I tend to disagree, I think possibly if you spent all of your exercise time doing nothing but ergining or rowing it would trump cross-training but most of us can’t do that 'cause we’d die of boredom.

But anyway, I think you need change up the erging. Add some AT workouts. Have you done a 2k test for a baseline score? You’re already doing enough steady state. A couple of workouts I like:

900m w/ 40 sec rests at 5 sec over your 2K. Start at four, work up to seven intervals. The first one should feel not as hard, the last ones will feel very, very hard.

3 minutes on/1 minute off times 3 at 10 sec over your 2K. Take five minutes rest between sets. Start with three, build to five.

Go over to the Concept 2 website and look at their training pages for other workout ideas. And check out the forums. Xeno and other kick-ass rowers post there and there’s lots of good info.

Are you only rowing once a week? Do you have access to a single? Getting on the water in a single will improve your technique in an eight even tho’ it’s scullling. You can figure out things like set, how to connect with the water, and how not to “check” the boat pretty fast in a single.

I’m sure HappyHeroScrappyPup will be along shortly with a lot more advice for you.

[GomiBoy]

@tremorviolet

My rowing coach isn’t a big believer in cross-training; he says there are no studies out there have ever proven that weights add anything to your erg score. I tend to disagree, I think possibly if you spent all of your exercise time doing nothing but ergining or rowing it would trump cross-training but most of us can’t do that 'cause we’d die of boredom.

But anyway, I think you need change up the erging. Add some AT workouts. Have you done a 2k test for a baseline score? You’re already doing enough steady state. A couple of workouts I like:

900m w/ 40 sec rests at 5 sec over your 2K. Start at four, work up to seven intervals. The first one should feel not as hard, the last ones will feel very, very hard.

3 minutes on/1 minute off times 3 at 10 sec over your 2K. Take five minutes rest between sets. Start with three, build to five.

Go over to the Concept 2 website and look at their training pages for other workout ideas. And check out the forums. Xeno and other kick-ass rowers post there and there’s lots of good info.

Are you only rowing once a week? Do you have access to a single? Getting on the water in a single will improve your technique in an eight even tho’ it’s scullling. You can figure out things like set, how to connect with the water, and how not to “check” the boat pretty fast in a single.

I’m sure HappyHeroScrappyPup will be along shortly with a lot more advice for you.

I baselined at about 7:30 or so on the 2k ergo, but that was a couple of months ago. I just did a 5k ergo and came in at 18:48 which was a full minute faster than my last time, so I know the programme is working, it’s just bloody BORING!

I’ll check out the concept 2 website, thanks for the tip.

And I’m a novice, so I only go out in an 8 once a week. I’m trying for 2 but I need to get in better shape and faster and then I can get into the Saturday outing as well and we’re trying to pull together a Monday night outing but it’s tough since it gets dark so early. We’re starting sculling lessons in April when the river gets warmer and we’re less likely to get hypothermia if we fall in, but I’ve just started so can’t go out on my own yet. I’m also trying to talk the coach into taking some of us out in a four as I’ve heard that is better for your technique improvement than an 8 - you notice right away if you’re doing something wrong in a four!

What’s an AT workout? I’ve not heard of that one…

[Alex_Dubinsky]

If you want bigger faster stronger, don’t forget nutrition. (Your body has to actually grow itself, and it doesn’t do it on air.) Eat lots of vitamins, minerals, and proteins, all preferably in fresh form. I’m a strong advocate of fresh-made vegetable juice (it’s got much more nutrients than you’d ever get from trying to chew the vegies yourself).

[GomiBoy]

@Alex_Dubinsky

If you want bigger faster stronger, don’t forget nutrition. (Your body has to actually grow itself, and it doesn’t do it on air.) Eat lots of vitamins, minerals, and proteins, all preferably in fresh form. I’m a strong advocate of fresh-made vegetable juice (it’s got much more nutrients than you’d ever get from trying to chew the vegies yourself).

Sorry, should have noted - I’m doing pretty good on the diet front as well. I eat 4-5 times per day, and at least 2 of those are protein-heavy meals, and I do light to no carbs after 8pm. I do a protein recovery drink after weight workouts, and sometimes after cardio workouts as well, and do eat fresh greens and veg all the time - we just got a new farmer’s market that is excellent. The GF is a whiz with the blender and she makes smoothies as well.

[tremorviolet]

@GomiBoy

I’m also trying to talk the coach into taking some of us out in a four as I’ve heard that is better for your technique improvement than an 8 - you notice right away if you’re doing something wrong in a four!

True but, wow, 4+'s can be soooo painful if you’re a novice. The most important thing to do when you’re out with the coach is to focus on the workout. If he tells you not to dump your chest down on your knees, think about it every single stroke, not just the few strokes he’s watching and then spacing out and going back to your old way. It’s hard to make changes (and some people are better than others) and it’s feels “weird” but you need to row through the weirdness.

Find tricks in the boat to help you focus on the changes: to prevent rushing, watch the water going by the boat out of a corner of your eye and try no to move a lot faster. To prevent skying, don’t let your hands drop down onto the gunnels. To prevent flip catching, start your roll up over your ankles (while watching seven seat, of course). Even when you’re out and just setting the boat, concentrate on setting it well and watch to see what your other crew members are doing and what you want to not do. One of the biggest problems I run into with some of the guys I coach is that they seem to think that “just rowing” will help them get better. Water time isn’t going to do anything for you (and could even reinforce bad habits) if you aren’t actively working to get better.

OK, off my coaching soap box now.

What’s an AT workout? I’ve not heard of that one…

Anabolic threshold. It’s the point at which your body switches from using fat to using glycogen. At this point, you also start creating a lot of lactic acid which will rapidly slow you down. You wan to work on delaying the onset of lactic acid production by working right at the edge of your anaerobic threshold. This is particularly important for the spring sprint races as a 2k puts you right at the edge the entire time.

Here’s some info. The page talks a lot about heart rate training; in lieu of having the entire team have HR monitors, we generally use targeted split times bases on 2k scores.

I’m suprise HappyHeroScrappyPup hasn’t stopped by. He’s a coxswain of some infamy and would probably have a whole host of workouts for you. You might try emailing him.

[GomiBoy]

@tremorviolet

True but, wow, 4+'s can be soooo painful if you’re a novice. The most important thing to do when you’re out with the coach is to focus on the workout. If he tells you not to dump your chest down on your knees, think about it every single stroke, not just the few strokes he’s watching and then spacing out and going back to your old way. It’s hard to make changes (and some people are better than others) and it’s feels “weird” but you need to row through the weirdness.

Find tricks in the boat to help you focus on the changes: to prevent rushing, watch the water going by the boat out of a corner of your eye and try no to move a lot faster. To prevent skying, don’t let your hands drop down onto the gunnels. To prevent flip catching, start your roll up over your ankles (while watching seven seat, of course). Even when you’re out and just setting the boat, concentrate on setting it well and watch to see what your other crew members are doing and what you want to not do. One of the biggest problems I run into with some of the guys I coach is that they seem to think that “just rowing” will help them get better. Water time isn’t going to do anything for you (and could even reinforce bad habits) if you aren’t actively working to get better.

OK, off my coaching soap box now.

Anabolic threshold. It’s the point at which your body switches from using fat to using glycogen. At this point, you also start creating a lot of lactic acid which will rapidly slow you down. You wan to work on delaying the onset of lactic acid production by working right at the edge of your anaerobic threshold. This is particularly important for the spring sprint races as a 2k puts you right at the edge the entire time.

Here’s some info. The page talks a lot about heart rate training; in lieu of having the entire team have HR monitors, we generally use targeted split times bases on 2k scores.

I’m suprise HappyHeroScrappyPup hasn’t stopped by. He’s a coxswain of some infamy and would probably have a whole host of workouts for you. You might try emailing him.

Thanks for the further advise… I have two outings tomorrow, and focus is something I definitely need to work on. Of course the emails are flying and we might be 1 short for each outing so might not go out at all

I’ll give it a go…

[GomiBoy]

BTW - can’t find the username HappyHeroScrappyPup - is that the right username?

[tremorviolet]

@GomiBoy

BTW - can’t find the username HappyHeroScrappyPup - is that the right username?

I had it wrong, it’s Happy Scrappy Hero Pup. The link goes to his user info. He does have one post today so maybe he’ll stop by.

[Alex_Dubinsky]

@tremorviolet

Anabolic threshold. It’s the point at which your body switches from using fat to using glycogen. At this point, you also start creating a lot of lactic acid which will rapidly slow you down. You wan to work on delaying the onset of lactic acid production by working right at the edge of your anaerobic threshold. This is particularly important for the spring sprint races as a 2k puts you right at the edge the entire time.

Hasn’t the lactic acid idea been totally discredited?

But I dunno, it probably depends what you’re trying to achieve. If you want to run the marathon, then pacing yourself below the AT is probably a great idea. If you want to do sprints or other burst-of-energy activities, I’d doubt it.

[tremorviolet]

@Alex_Dubinsky

Hasn’t the lactic acid idea been totally discredited?

But I dunno, it probably depends what you’re trying to achieve. If you want to run the marathon, then pacing yourself below the AT is probably a great idea. If you want to do sprints or other burst-of-energy activities, I’d doubt it.

Not as far as I know but I don’t keep up with the very latest stuff. But my coach does and he’s still for it.

Sprint races in rowing aren’t really sprints. A 2k will take you anywhere from 6 and a half minutes to 8. A 5k head race, 15 minutes to 20 minutes. You want to go as hard as you absolutely can without crashing, just at your threshold.

[Alex_Dubinsky]

@tremorviolet

Sprint races in rowing aren’t really sprints. A 2k will take you anywhere from 6 and a half minutes to 8. A 5k head race, 15 minutes to 20 minutes. You want to go as hard as you absolutely can without crashing, just at your threshold.

But maybe crashing will push back your threshold better than not surpassing it at all? That’s usually how things work with excercise. But anyway, I can’t really say I know what I’m talking about.

[tremorviolet]

@Alex_Dubinsky

But maybe crashing will push back your threshold better than not surpassing it at all? That’s usually how things work with excercise. But anyway, I can’t really say I know what I’m talking about.

Somebody may cone along who can explain this better than me but as I understand it, exercise performance depends on two things: VO2max and lactic acid threshold. You can change your VO2max somewhat with training but your lactate threshold is more adaptable. You want to do interval training right at the edge of your anaerobic threshold to teach your body to efficiently deal with greater amounts of lactic acid. If you just exercised until you crashed each time, I think you’d just be teaching your body to be more efficient at crashing. Anyway, there’s been lots of research on the subject and interval training has been proven to be very effective.

Here’s a good article. I thought this was interesting:

Intermittent exercise allows a higher total volume of high intensity work, and also accumulates a greater volume of stress on the blood pumping capacity of the heart. According to exercise physiologist Dr. Steven Seilor, the periodic elevations and decreases in intensity may create special loading stresses on the heart that are adaptive. Seilor suggests that during an interval, heart rate climbs high, then at the moment you stop the interval, heart rate immediately starts to drop, but venous return remains high. These exposures to additional ventricular stretch may help trigger ventricular remodeling (increased heart ventricle volume).

[ultrafilter]

@tremorviolet

My rowing coach isn’t a big believer in cross-training; he says there are no studies out there have ever proven that weights add anything to your erg score.

Are all the studies looking at regimes like this?

circuit + squats, leg presses, barbell power cleans, bench press, military press, bench row - 4 sets of 35 reps each, so low weight

Cause that sort of training isn’t going to do anything for athletic performance, or really any other quality you’re interested in. Kinda hard to get injured, though, so that is one point in its favor.

All else being equal, a stronger athlete will be a faster athlete. There are a lot of variables in a program that go into its outcome, but it’s fair to say that a strength program emphasizes multi-joint movements and consists of 25-30 reps per movement per session and at most 8 reps per set. Note that strength training is best reserved for your off-season, when the demands of your sport aren’t so high.

@Alex_Dubinsky

Hasn’t the lactic acid idea been totally discredited?

There’s been some recent research that suggests that we don’t completely understand the exact role of lactic acid in energy production, but nothing that would discredit the idea of lactic acid training. What has been discredited is the notion that prolonged/delayed-onset muscle soreness is due to lactic acid staying around for any length of time.

[tremorviolet]

@ultrafilter

Are all the studies looking at regimes like this?Cause that sort of training isn’t going to do anything for athletic performance, or really any other quality you’re interested in. Kinda hard to get injured, though, so that is one point in its favor.

All else being equal, a stronger athlete will be a faster athlete. There are a lot of variables in a program that go into its outcome, but it’s fair to say that a strength program emphasizes multi-joint movements and consists of 25-30 reps per movement per session and at most 8 reps per set. Note that strength training is best reserved for your off-season, when the demands of your sport aren’t so high.

I don’t know what the specific routines were but my coach is the type who reads all the latest research. He’s a former NCAA rowing coach for a top-ranked women’s program (there are very few big men’s programs due to Title IX) and sports training research is his main interest. There are also a fair number of research projects involving rowers because the erg test is such a great measurement tool. (plus, rowers tend to be a lot more research oriented than the average athlete) Evidently, no matter what the strength training program or cross training routine, nothing has been proven to improve your erg score more than erging (or rowing). Our jr girls coach, a former member of the Olympic silver 8+ in this past Olympics agrees although she thinks some extra training for the core is important.

Like I said before, I personally think that if you spent all of your training hours doing nothing but erging or rowing, that might be the most beneficial to your score. But most of us don’t have the focus to be so single handedly devoted to one thing. (the top ranked rowers do, those guys are kinda scary) A crew mate of mine who was a almost ran for the national team has be working with a trainer and just posted a PR for her 2k score. I personally lift because I enjoy it and because there are certain muscles rowing just doesn’t target. (like triceps)

[Alex_Dubinsky]

@tremorviolet

If you just exercised until you crashed each time, I think you’d just be teaching your body to be more efficient at crashing. Anyway, there’s been lots of research on the subject and interval training has been proven to be very effective.

How about: has there been research that studied doing both sub-AT and crashing in some combination? I can see how crashing is pretty bad simply because it cuts short your workout, but I have a hunch that pushing past your body’s boundaries will get it to extend them.

[Alex_Dubinsky]

Oh, the thing that I’d like to say that’s actually useful, is:

If you’re looking to have an attractive body, well proportioned, great posture etc., the secret to doing that is flexibility. A lot of guys (almost everyone) thinks that it’s about having big muscles, but in fact the muscles have to be long and stretched so that the skeleton can assume the correct form and all the body parts come together. That’s what separates all the guys who aren’t even muscular but got all the girls drooling. Rigourous holistic stretching is key. Playing sports will also naturally stretch you out to a good degree, but the guys who are just lifting weights in the gym are really missing out.

[GomiBoy]

@Alex_Dubinsky

Oh, the thing that I’d like to say that’s actually useful, is:

If you’re looking to have an attractive body, well proportioned, great posture etc., the secret to doing that is flexibility. A lot of guys (almost everyone) thinks that it’s about having big muscles, but in fact the muscles have to be long and stretched so that the skeleton can assume the correct form and all the body parts come together. That’s what separates all the guys who aren’t even muscular but got all the girls drooling. Rigourous holistic stretching is key. Playing sports will also naturally stretch you out to a good degree, but the guys who are just lifting weights in the gym are really missing out.

I stretch 10 minutes on either side of my workouts, as that’s really important for rowing - the speed of a boat is a function of:

1. The number of strokes,
2. The power of the strokes (of which 90% comes from your legs, and very little from arms / back), and
3. The length of your stroke. This is a function of how long you can stretch your arms and legs out.

So I absolutely agree that stretching is critical - hamstrings and calves get stretched out pretty long when you do the stroke right. I also do so many other sports that I need good flexibility.

I, like TremorViolet, don’t have the kind of (semi-insane) focus to just sit on an ergo for 2 hours a day and my coach recommends weights for both core strength and for explosive power (we are starting a heavy weight programme next week).

I feel that the combination programme has given me more benefit that just sitting on an erg. And the both the elite mens’ and womens’ rowing squads do weights twice a week as well, so I don’t imagine they’d waste their time doing it if it didn’t help their overall rowing ability.

Finally, I am not a single-sport guy. I row, but I also rock climb, mountain bike, cycle, snowboard, ski, sail, swim, and race in triathlons. Cross-training isn’t something I am doing to get good at rowing, but something I am doing for my overall lifestyle.

**ultrafilter ** - that workout took me from 19:58 5k ergo to 18:48 and has helped me lose almost 5k of ‘penalty’ weight; I think it helped. And strength / core workouts are scientifically proven to help avoid injury; the most common injury for rowers is backs and shoulders. The strength workout is designed to help prevent those.