I’m a DVM, not a MD, but I feel qualified enough to speak on this based on how competitive vet school is.
A 3.3 GPA, by itself, is not a death blow if his undergrad has an academically tough reputation. I came out of school with similar grades (never fell below a C in any one class, though), but by the standards of my school, I performed great. Two vet schools accepted me.
Regardless of his grades, there are two things he should be doing right now to make himself an attractive candidate: acquiring healthcare experience and studying for the MCAT. If he can’t find a job in the medical area, then he needs to volunteer at a hospital or something. If there are any MDs that might be willing to let him shadow, then he needs to be doing that.
Perhaps he could even consider volunteering/working at a veterinary clinic if he can’t finagle himself into a hospital. Medicine is medicine whether you’re talking about animals or humans, and this might make him stand out a little.
I both agree and disagree with you. I agree that he should be looking at options for what they are, not what they are not. And that a career in nursing can be challenging and rewarding.
However… Obtaining a nursing degree as a means to becoming a doctor is a legitimate path. While he may find a rewarding career as a nurse, he may also use the experience and education gained in becoming a nurse to then move on to becoming a doctor. And that experience will likely make him a better doctor.
It does not denigrate a job to use it as a stepping stone to other things. Doctors require more education and training than nurses. Many nurses move on to a career as a doctor. Some people want to be accountants, some want to be CFOs. The world needs both.
Finally, another advantage of becoming a nurse first is that he could work for a few years at a very good wage to save for further education.
Can he go back an retake classes to raise his GPA? I know of one guy who got into a DO program with a 2.75, while doing very well on the MCAT. The industry standard is 3.3 GPA, but different schools want different things. Like Johns Hopkins perfer a non-science undergrad degree. You also have to prove to JH admissions that you are really passionate about helping people so to have volunteer work as such, goes in your favor.
I just got a response from my nephew and wanted to reply with his words (with slight editing by me to remove identifying details, etc):
*Many of these driving forces are the same cliches that med school interviewers hear every year (“I love helping people. I want to serve my fellow man. I have a deep and burning passion for science and how the body works” etc). Unfortunately as much as people cringe when hearing these cliches I believe that these cliches as driving forces are necessary but of course everyone adds a little bit more related to their particular circumstances which makes them stand out.
Yes, I do want to help people, yes I have a passion for science but one major reason is tied to my faith in a sort of indirect way. There is so much reward in my religion for helping others and what better way to rack up those good deeds than to make a career out of it. Sure I’m not the brightest tool in the shed but I have excellent interpersonal skills (if I do say so myself) and I am most definitely a hard worker. I have often been asked “well if you like helping people and want a career in healthcare then why not be something else like a PA or a Nurse practitioner?” Although those are great and respectable professions, I like to be more a leader than a follower. I know that I can handle the responsibilities that come with being a physician. Of course there are many more reasons why I want to go down this career route and these were just a few. *
From what has been said in this thread, it sounds like his biggest focus trying to get in with his GPA should be:
A) doing absolutely as well on his MCAT as possible to make up for some ground lost with his GPA, and
B) differentiating himself from the pack as an individual (and I suspect his honest “why I want to be a doctor” explanation is probably somewhat typical of many candidates), and
C) trying to get real experience in the medical field.
Again, thanks to ALL of you for the excellent replies. Short of hearing from someone actually on a school’s selection committee, I think you’ve all done very well (stagger backwards in the style of Mr. Grace).
He would definitely benefit from having some real world medical experience, in many ways. It may disabuse him some of the concept that as a doctor you are somehow more a leader than a follower than are many other members of the team. The fact is that we all work together and that while we physicians have more autonomy and control than do many other portions of the healthcare system we very much all both follow and lead and work cooperatively, often implementing (hopefully evidence based) guidelines that others have formulated. We are not quite as autonomous as we used to be; we instead work as part of delivery systems now. Yes there are physician leaders, but there are also nurse leaders, and so on. And being a “leader” often translates into being an administrator which means giving up some of (and for some all of) your clinical time. It again also must be noted that the marginal increase in autonomy that we physicians enjoy relative to some other members of the team comes at a significant price in terms of debt and time.
I would challenge him to figure out what he really has in mind when he says “lead” and how he pictures being a physician does that so much more than a variety of other career choices.
Then, if he does not get in on his first try, and he is sure that becoming a physician is still what he feels is the best path for him, get some experience that follows through on his faith based commitment to do good works. Or find a way to develop the administrative chops that really being a leader in medicine today requires. Or both at the same time.
“There is so much reward in my religion for helping others and what better way to rack up those good deeds than to make a career out of it.”
Not trying to be overly critical here, but I’d advise your nephew to think long and hard about this sentence before he works it into his interview spiel. It sounds like his main motivation for pursuing this track is potential blessings in the afterlife. Although it may not seem like it because faith is being invoked, this is as shallow as him saying he wants to be a doc so he can make a lot of money and drive a Jag. He should be applauded for being honest, but I can’t imagine any schools being impressed by someone who wants to “rack up good deeds” to score points with The Lord.
“Sure I’m not the brightest tool in the shed but I have excellent interpersonal skills (if I do say so myself) and I am most definitely a hard worker.”
I recommend not using this line during the interview.
One option for your nephew is to do what I did coming out of college - work horrendous hours for low pay in an industry peopled by loonies and slackers with little future, recognize the futility involved, get back into school and rack up really good grades. He could then tell the med schools he’d be so grateful to be a doctor that he’d never ever bitch about hours, pay, government interference, insurance companies, demanding patients or any of the usual crap.
“My hobby was animal husbandry, until they caught me.*”
*Apologies to Tom Lehrer.
Yes, those are both accurate. Not getting a residency means you probably won’t be able to work as a doctor in America (and probably not in most other countries either since the American medical system is actually one of the ones that is MOST accepting of MDs from other countries). In spite of the US being an easier place for a foreign MD to get a residency than other countries, it is still harder in a variety of ways for people trying to get into residency here if they went to a medical school outside of the United States.
For example:
Everyone in the medical world knows that Caribbean med schools are a “last resort” option for people who could not get into an American MD or DO school, and that stigma means that Carib people have to work harder to be viewed as being “equivalent” to the US grads (I will say that I have worked alongside docs from Caribbean med schools and they were no better or worse than US grads - it really is about the individual, not the school - but still there is the stigma on Carib people).
It is often helpful to have a mentor in med school who knows people at other residency programs and can “make phone calls” for you to help you match. Usually Caribbean and overseas med schools don’t have people with those kinds of connections on faculty.
Being a US medical grad makes it easier to get accepted for away rotations at desirable residency programs, and if a residency has observed your work personally that can help your application immensely.
Another problem with the Caribbean stigma is that even if you do work hard to prove you’re an equal to the US grads, some programs are insecure enough about their image and prestige that they will try their best to avoid taking Carib grads just because of how it will look to OTHERS if their program has too many foreign docs in it.
Since the US is one of the few places that will take foreign MDs, there are many very qualified applicants from places like India who are vying for a spot here too. Many programs might prefer to have a brilliant superstar MD from the best medical school in India than someone who didn’t have a good enough academic record to make it into a US med school.
So, yes, it is really important to look at how likely you are to be able to secure a US residency from your med school.
I agree that doing volunteer work is essential, but I am concerned that because of how competitive getting into vet school is, if he lists veterinary experience on his application then MD schools may assume (even if not correctly) that he is only applying to medical school as a backup to vet school. Any hint of not being 100% committed to medicine is going to look very bad to admissions people at med school.
He needs to re-think the nurse= follower/ Dr= leader thing.
As whynot stated so eloquently, it is a matter of completely different skill sets and ways of thinking, and suit very different types of people. It’s not a boss/secretary relationship the way many people seem to think.
Drs are, if nothing else, a bunch of stubborn, pigheaded, individualists with a strong streak of sheer willful contrariness, who on the whole enjoy taking risks and flying by the seat of their pants.
Nurses on the whole are kind, compassionate people who are methodical, conscientious and enjoy working through clearly written protocols.
Nurse clinics tend to involve a set protocol which varies little from patient to patient, and which has to be implemented thoroughly time after time.
Example- asthma education and explaining to 20 patients in a row how to use an inhaler.
Most nurses would find this fulfilling and rewarding work.
Most doctors would find something like that akin to purgatory.
A day without risk, and variety and some level of medical complexity and uncertainty is not a good day for most doctors. We see protocols and think of ways to exempt the patient from it, or shortcut it.
Nurses don’t, and that it why, thank goodness, they do so much chronic disease management.
Question: Would he consider military or Public Health Service?
If he’s eligible to serve in the military, he needs to talk to a recruiter who specializes in officers. Acceptance would mean that Uncle Sam pays for his medical school, and then he owes Uncle Sam a year-for-year payback for the training.
~VOW
lavenderviolet BTW- you’re wrong about the USA being one of the most accepting countries WRT foreign Drs.
I can work in any EU country, India, Pakistan, most of the Gulf states, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and most of Africa, at the same level (GP) as I currently work in the UK, with minimal hoops to jump through (maybe a language test).
Only in the USA would I need to re-enter hospital and do a full residency.
Splendid news! You asked earlier what sorts of experiences an applicant might be able to use to mitigate a relatively low (for med school admission) undergraduate GPA.
Well! His experiences where he implemented those values he talked about above—helping others, taking leadership roles—are just those sorts of experiences.
VOW, I actually think a military career would be great for him, but mostly for my own personal reasons*.
If he went the military route with MD or DO in mind, I understand that the military would (if meeting a variety of conditions) pick up the tab, but would that make acceptance into the school any easier?
*(I came of age in the 70s. In the 70s, the military in general was not well-thought-of, particularly by teenagers. While I don’t regret my career choices, I think I would have been very happy in the military, so I’m keen on my nieces/nephews considering that career choice)
Not any sort of medical person here, but he might want to rethink his stance on physician assistants and nurse practitioners. I think he has a vast misunderstanding of how they work.
I have one doctor that I’ve never seen - just the NP. The doctor’s name is on the bills, but that’s the only contact I have with her.
Took my mom to a specialist - she saw the actual MD once; he didn’t do anything special. All other visits and ongoing care were with the PA. He saw Mom, got her history and symptoms, made diagnoses, and prescribed care. If you didn’t know that his title was PA, you’d have assumed he was “the doctor”.
I’ve had similar experiences with PAs and NPs for other specialists, also. It’s not like they go running to the physician every few minutes to get instructions. They do patient care just like a doctor - except that they call on his expertise when needed (very rarely IME).
Personally, if given a choice, I’ll always make an appointment with a PA or NP before the actual doctor. In my experience, they do more (and often better) whole-patient care than the actual physicians.
So if he’s truly interested in patient care and helping people, those are really good options. He would still work independently, not as “a follower”. And NPs in group practices (more and more these days) are often “leaders” for clinics.
Former Med School Admissions Committee member checking in:
There is a lot of good advice in this thread. My opinion is that the 3.3GPA is definitely NOT a deal breaker. He really does need to focus on his MCAT and his extracurriculars though. I assume since he’s taking the MCAT this Spring that he will be applying through AMCAS in the Fall and interviewing later in the year all the way through March 2013.
My medical school was one of several Primary Care focused schools that opened in the late 1970s to address shortages. We had lower GPA/MCAT cut offs for in-state students vs out of state in terms of getting an interview. After that, we gve some preference to applicants who demonstrated interest in primary care medicine. In the end, acceptance was based on the entire application and interview.
I would strongly advise him to get a job or volunteer in a medical setting where he is actually involved in patient care in some way (i.e. not volunteering in the gift shop at the hospital). In my own world (the ER) many groups are employing pre-med students to serve as scribes expediting documentation and patient throughput. This would be a great job for just about any eventual field of medicine because he will see a little bit of everything working there.
Also he should cast a wide net in his application. It starts to get expensive and time consuming sending your application all over the country and filling out secondary application essays, but it might make the difference in getting in somewhere in NYC vs not getting in at all.
With regards to residency, there is a definite bias against Foreign Medical Grads and to some extent DOs in getting US residency spots but depending on his chosen specialty, that is not an insurmountable obstacle.
Well, the Match is between residencies and graduates, it has nothing to do with the schools themselves. Foreign medical grads are just as welcome to submit their information as any other qualifying graduate.
It isn’t quite as heinous as you make it out to be and it does a fairly good job of ensuring that the students get into one of their top choice residencies and that the programs get candidates they want.
The Scramble is a nerve wracking experience (I should know), but it happens before ‘Match Day’ and the Dean has nothing to do with it aside from providing a space for Scramblers to call and fax their applications to open programs. In the end it all falls on the Student to find a spot.
Most residencies have agreements not to take any applicants outside of the Match unless they cannot fill their spots during the Scramble.
Thank you again for all the responses, and of course having USCDiver’s input is certainly welcome. I know that to each of you it is just a posting on a message board, but I assure you this young man values each piece of advice or anecdote given in this thread.
If anyone has anything to add about the “military option”, or can point to further information on the subject, that would be most appreciated.
