I’m not quite sure if this question has a factual answer, because it concerns language usage, but I don’t want a poll.
The background: I read the language lerning crime novel “Das geheimnisvolle Gemälde” (The mysterious painting), Story by Marc Hillefeld, translation by Autumn Pierce.
Spoiler to follow:
A conversation between private detective Elvira and Scotland Yard inspector about an American she met previously:
(italics in the original)
Now, this is An Important Clue and turning point for the novel - the whole focus changes suddenly and abruptly.* I always have trouble with statements that “everybody/nobody” of a nation/ group would say/ do this.
So: is this just common usage that Americans, esp. Texans, say ‘fall’ and British say ‘autumn’? How likely is it that an American - staying in London for a couple of days - might have picked up Britishisms? Is it safe to say a Texan would never use the word, or is it simply highly unlikely?
I find this hard to believe for another reason, but then I find the story in general to be badly written with several huge gaps in plausability and logic and realism.
I’d say Americans tend to use both interchangeably. It might vary by region and I don’t speak Texan, but it’s silly to say a “real American” would never use the word, unless “real American” means something different than I think it means.
It’s not quite as absolute as it is made out to be in the dialogue, but it’s not an unfair inference. Certainly there is a pretty strong tendency to use “fall” instead of “autumn” in American speech, although some people do use it. It’s not as definite a difference as using “elevator” instead of “lift” or “trunk” instead of “boot,” however. I would say it would be highly unlikely for a Texan to use “autumn” in casual speech, even after a few days in Britain, but not impossible.
As an American who lived in New Zealand for several years, people there would sometimes remark on my use of fall instead of autumn.
It’s an Encyclopedia Brown* clue: It’s defensible, but it’s a mighty slender hook on which to hang a plot.
*(Encyclopedia Brown was a series of kids’ books where a kid would go around solving mysteries using clues much like this one; that is, little generalizations and simplifications that wouldn’t hold up to much scrutiny and mainly served to tell if you were paying attention.)
I think there’s a subtle difference in connotation between the two words, with “fall” (or “the fall”) being the default term, and “autumn” being slightly more . . . perhaps “esthetic” or “poetic” would be the correct term. It’s not uncommon to hear phrases like “autumn leaves” or “autumn(al) colors,” but even in those phrases you’d still hear “fall” much of the time.
While I love clues like that in mystery books, the othe clue I love is “No real American knows the second verse of the Star Spangled Banner.”
I would say a lot of Texan use the phrase “Autumn.” Part of it is since the 1960s we’ve had massive amounts of immigration from the North to the South. This introduces new words constantly.
I am an American born and raised her but the rest of my family isn’t. As a result I have picked up a bunch of “odd” words here and there. Plus the fact is when I went to grade school, for 3rd, 4th and 5th grade I had teachers that insisted British spelling was correct. Although you could USE humor, it REALLY is humour.
So here it is decades later I still stuff that ‘U’ in out of habit.
While it’s fun to have clues like that in books, it’s more correct, instead of saying “so and so” wouldn’t say that or know that, it’d be better to say “I suspected.”
As a side note don’t forget the the old “how to tell a man from a woman.” You tell them to look at their soles of their shoes. A man should pick up his foot off the ground and look while a woman would simply stand on her “tip toes” and look at the soles that way.
From the UK side of the dscussion, npnod here would say “fall”. It’s always “autumn”; it took me quite a while when the internet first appeared getting used to hearing Americans saying “fall”.
Yeah, I’d have to be some kind of contortionist to look at the bottom of my feet while standing on my tiptoes looking over my shoulder. I’m not even sure how that’s supposed to be plausible.
You know the old saying: Men are from Mars, women are aliens with a bone structure markedly different from anything found on Earth.
Yes, that is a bizarre thing to think. I don’t quite get how it would work, either, unless a real woman is constantly followed by a full-length mirror.
No Australian ever says fall either. It’s always autumn.
But virtually anyone in the British English-speaking world knows about “fall” from watching American movies and TV shows. I think i had worked out that fall=autumn by the time i was about 12. My mother probably explained it to me.
My impression, from a lower-middle-class environment in Upstate New York, is that “fall” is the default usage for the season, but everyone knows “autumn” and will use it on occasion, especially when there might be confusion with other meanings of the word “fall” or in more formal situations. There are also idiomatic usages: “Autumn leaves in their fall colors,” for example, would never be said the opposite way around. Use of “autumn” for the season outside such contexts would be rare, but would not ipso facto be seen as pretentious or pedantic as some other usages would, though it might well be part of the preferred vocabulary of a pretentious person or pedant.
Yes, an odd thing to hear here outside of (US) TV. I can see “fall” causing comment… but not the opposite: (anecdote not evidence) I’d be unlikely to notice or comment if an alleged American said “Autumn”, but would be very surprised if an alleged Kiwi said “Fall”.
‘Autumn’ seemed much more prevalent when I was a kid in San Diego than it is now. Back then, one was as likely to hear either term. Nowadays the only time I really hear the season mentioned is in the ‘Fall SALE!!!’ commercials, so ‘fall’ sort of pounded into my head.
The version I’m familiar with - still mostly nonsense, but at least anatomically feasible - a man will move his foot around to the front, whereas a woman will kick it up behind her and look over her shoulder.
Female here - if you ask me to look at the sole of my shoe I pick my foot up in front of my body and look at the bottom - this business of “kick it up behind and look over the shoulder” is… bizarre to me.
Of course, if my knees are really giving me hell and you ask me to look at the sole of my shoe I’ll just take the shoe off and turn it upside down. No contortion required.
And you can tell a gay man from a straight man by the way he looks at his fingernails . . . fingers straight, palm outward for gay; fingers bent, palm inward for straight.
Stranger to me (I’m Australian) is learning that autumn begins at different times (allowing for NH/SH). Starts on the first of the month here, seems logical, but then you find out it’s a slightly fuzzy start elsewhere.
It’s probably just an outdated tip. Certainly if I was wearing a 40’s style straight knee-length skirt I’d do the foot-behind thing. In jeans, not so much.