Discriminating against a person because of their skin colour is racism, no matter what colour the skin is. Some people describe AA as reverse racism, but it’s just plain racism.
Here in South Africa, AA is government enforced. There is something called the Equity bill, which more or less states that there has to be racial distribution across a certain percentage of any company’s employees (or the company faces stiff fines). There have been many jobs in the last few years which were/are described as “Affirmitive action only” in their placement adverts. This is no different to “No whites”. NO DIFFERENT. Inevitably, you end up with posts being filled with unqualified or unskilled people, or simply, not the ideal candidates. The filter “business” effect on the companies/government is noticeable and irrefutable. More difficult to pin down is the social consequence, the resentment and anger harboured towards people who are given jobs because they had the right skin colour. There’s also the flipside - knowing you got a job because of your skin, not because of what you know or can do. Most of them do not want it that way, and the situation is disagreeable to all involved.
As has been mentioned, AA only perpetuates racism, it can never hope to end it.
xtisme, thank you for your post. I always feel that keeping this argument from being completely segregated helps a lot in keeping focus on the issues rather than the combatants.
The fact that it’s using a socioeconomic program instead of a wholly racial one is good. The fact that it’s still using race to determine who gets accepted is not, and is still racism.
And your link is hooey, btw. The argument present there basically boils down to, “You’ve had your chance for hundreds of years. It’s our turn now, so shut up and bend over, whitey!” The argument is not a very valid one considering my ancestors immigrated fairly recently and became poor farmers, not rich businessmen. As I’ve mentioned earlier, the area I’m from is very hispanic, so discrimination has in fact run the other way for me. I’ve yet to see any of the highly touted implicit benefits of being white that the author of your article claims to be “like water to a fish.” So enlighten me.
The link is opinion and should be taken as such, the facts of how UofM is using AA is not. Agree with the author’s opinions or not…
The point was to show that poor whites were getting the short end as was suggested. They’re not.
If you don’t understand or see the advantage of being white in America, over non-whites no matter what your social/ecomonic background is, then nothing I say will convince you otherwise.
Here’s my 2 cents: The only way to make permanent advances in eradicating prejudices is to take a firm, consistent stance that skin color and other superficialities are irrelevant, period. You cannot eradicate racism with policies grounded in the notion of race. As long people accept that race is a valid basis for discrimination at all, then there will be who do so in unreasonable and hateful ways.
My personal reaction is that giving extra admission points to a particular group is insulting and amounts to an official recognition that members of the group in question are not good enough to be held to the same standards. Such policies perpetuate the assumption that the group is inferior.
South Africa has been the red-headed stepchild of Africa, used primarily as a resort for rich white people. It’s been less than 15 years since blacks (who are indeginous to the area for goodness sakes) were allowed just basic freedoms.
South Africa was doing just fine before the white man came and said, “LOLOLOL!!! Let’s trot into their homeland with our kool weapons, discriminate against them and call it ‘apartness!’ ROFLOLOL.” The fact of the matter is, South Africa was doing just great, once they were “released” from Great Britain in the 30’s, the white people (who were in the minority) should have just left instead of trying to establish Apartheid.
Affirmative Action doesn’t perpetuate racism, it is the fruits of white people (not you specifically) have planted years ago. For example, I am sure the number of ** hate crimes against whites ** wouldn’t be so excruciatingly high if Dr. Malan didn’t plan the seeds of Apartheid decades ago. Since the abolishment of Apartheid, the crime rates against whites by blacks have exploded. Can you guess WHY that is? Hmm?
White people have benefited enormously, for decades in South Africa. Give the people who actually have birthright there a chance too. Good grief.
But skin color isn’t irrelavent. Skin color determines where you live, where school you go to, how you will be treated by law officials, and the list goes on and on. Skin color isn’t irrelavent and don’t let anyone else tell you that it isn’t.
I’m black, live in a very poor area in Detroit, and the fact that I got into the University of Michigan through Affirmative Action has given me a chance. Just for example, Kettering High School (In Detroit) has an average ACT score of 14 while if you were to choose Andover High School in Birmingham (I believe that’s the city) has an average ACT score of 23. Detroit is over 90% black.
According to the [url=http://www.detroitk12.org/data/ACTSummary.html Detroit Board of Education, the mean ACT score for their high schools is 16. Do you think any Detroit kid will get into any kind of University with a 16 ACT score? Do you really? Can you say that they can with a straight face? Affirmative Action attempts to give those students, who normally would not get in, a chance to go to a prestigious University.
Whether YOU or anyone likes it or not, blacks are graduating from these schools and they are performing extremely well despite setbacks. When we’re all equal, when color doesn’t determine anything in life, when the word “Inner City” is something is referred our history books as a trecherous time in history is when Affirmative Action should go away.
But never fear. The Supreme Court will rule that Affirmative Action is unconstitutional because we’ve moved to a social dawarnistic society. So you’ll have your wish: black people will be here for your athletic and musical entertainment and to take your order at your local fast food restaurant.
Peace,
Er, it kind of is. There is a significant correlation between skin color and income, and income and all those other things. But race influences said factors primarily through income. You said it yourself: you live in a poor area, which happens to be mostly black.
If you posit that the ACT means something, and that 16 is an insufficent score to attend a university, why does it matter where the kid came from?
Also, do you agree that AA shafts poor white kids?
On the scale, at the University of Michigan, you would get 0 points for a score of 16. You can get points deducted off based on the quality of the school. As you can see at that website, Detroit Public Schools are the bottom rung. Heck, the average building date on DPS is 1937. They are outdated and woefully unprepared. Detroit Public Schools offers curriculum like cosmetology, auto repair, all in an attempt to siphon minorities toward low-paying, blue-collar jobs.
Now, do I agree that Affirmative Action shafts poor white kids? No, I don’t. The reason is that a poor white kid gets as many points as a poor black kid. In fact, those poor white kids probably get accepted at a much higher rate than black kids. Simply because coming from “Trailer Park” cities like Warren or Redford don’t have such broken school systems.
I am a University of Michigan student and I can tell you that I don’t see all of these black people running around. We are in the minority. Just for example, I stay in East Quad (It’s a dorm) and out of 40-50 kids in my hall, there are only three black people (including me), two hispanic, and the rest are all white or asian. My students in my classes have similar racial gradients.
I just don’t see where the whole, “These lazy black folks are taking all of the white spots!” is coming from but there sure isn’t many of us here to begin with.
Don’t worry, Affirmative Action is going away, and black people can continue to entertain the masses on TV with basketball and football. You can be rest assured that once Affirmative Action goes away, then its sister, the Equal Opportunity (aka Executive Order 11246) will be struck down as well. Once this is done, America will have chained the next generation of minorities to poverty. This’ll be perfect, we’ll be in our little uniforms behind the microphone saying, “Yes, massah, would you like fries with that?”
In my eyes, when opponents of Affirmative Action say, “We’re not racist,” I just shake my head in disgust. Willing Affirmation Action away is the undoing of the civil right’s movement. The Civil Right’s movement brought these laws into being. Without them, blacks are in the same position without the exception of Jim Crow – though I have a hinting suspicion that’ll be coming back too.
When the Supreme Court rules that Affirmative Action is unconsitutional – which they will, I just can’t see them ruling any other way, especially after listening to the hearing. Who wants to start taking bets when Equal Opportunity is struck down too?
On the scale, at the University of Michigan, you would get 0 points for a score of 16. You can get points deducted off based on the quality of the school. As you can see at that website, Detroit Public Schools are the bottom rung. Heck, the average building date on DPS is 1937. They are outdated and woefully unprepared. Detroit Public Schools offers curriculum like cosmetology, auto repair, all in an attempt to siphon minorities toward low-paying, blue-collar jobs.
Now, do I agree that Affirmative Action shafts poor white kids? No, I don’t. The reason is that a poor white kid gets as many points as a poor black kid. In fact, those poor white kids probably get accepted at a much higher rate than black kids. Simply because coming from “Trailer Park” cities like Warren or Redford don’t have such broken school systems.
I am a University of Michigan student and I can tell you that I don’t see all of these black people running around. We are in the minority. Just for example, I stay in East Quad (It’s a dorm) and out of 40-50 kids in my hall, there are only three black people (including me), two hispanic, and the rest are all white or asian. My students in my classes have similar racial gradients.
I just don’t see where the whole, “These lazy black folks are taking all of the white spots!” is coming from but there sure isn’t many of us here to begin with.
Don’t worry, Affirmative Action is going away, and black people can continue to entertain the masses on TV with basketball and football. You can be rest assured that once Affirmative Action goes away, then its sister, the Equal Opportunity (aka Executive Order 11246) will be struck down as well. Once this is done, America will have chained the next generation of minorities to poverty. This’ll be perfect, we’ll be in our little uniforms behind the microphone saying, “Yes, massah, would you like fries with that?”
In my eyes, when opponents of Affirmative Action say, “We’re not racist,” I just shake my head in disgust. Willing Affirmation Action away is the undoing of the civil right’s movement. The Civil Right’s movement brought these laws into being. Without them, blacks are in the same position without the exception of Jim Crow – though I have a hinting suspicion that’ll be coming back too.
When the Supreme Court rules that Affirmative Action is unconsitutional – which they will, I just can’t see them ruling any other way, especially after listening to the hearing. Who wants to start taking bets when Equal Opportunity is struck down too?
We agree that the Detroit Public school system could use some work. But you didn’t answer my question: positing that the tests are fair, if a student from an upper-crust private school should be denied admission on the basis of a 16, shouldn’t everyone else as well?
I’m willing to bet that you can find a school system as bad that is predominantly white, if for no other reason than they are a majority. Again I reiterate: what provisions would affirmative action include for a hypothetical white student in this school system? And, if you are willing to let this student be lost in the noise, why should the rest of us not be willing to let the entire Detroit school system be similarly lost?
Well, come to Virginia Tech. I’m not doing demographic surveys, but we have a veritable spectrum of students on my hall alone.
Well, for some, affirmative action policies did end up denying them a position.
:rolleyes: on you. Would you like the simple version?
Racial discrimination is bad. Affirmative action is discrimination based on race. Affirmative action, therefore, is bad.
Also, I think that your assumption that black people need AA to be both fundamentally flawed (based on the number of black students in my classes who were academically kicking my ass) and intrinsically racist. Why should black students be given any special consideration, as opposed to poor students?
Affirmative Action didn’t deny white students anything. University of Michigan has said over and ove again that not taking race into account would raise a white student’s chance of getting into the school by 1%.
University of Michigan has said this over and over again. Everyone just wants to ignore it.
How many coconuts has to hit you people on the head before it sinks in?
Asians don’t have the history of adversity in the United States seen by African Americans, women, and hispanics. Asians didn’t have to launch a civil right’s movement, they didn’t have Jim Crow, their ancestors weren’t driven off to South America, nor do they have a history of repeated discrimination. While I acknowledge the struggles Asians went through during the SF gold rush and through WWII; the latter, the United States at least compensated them. I am still waiting for my check. If they aren’t going to give blacks reperations, then the very ** least ** should be to fix the school system.
Asians, as a race, are just like the Irish, German, or any European country when they come to the US. You’ll never see Wakiziki Yiroshima on the capital asking for civil right’s because Asians were, more or less, afforded those privileges.
Please. There’s been tons of discrimination against Asians. The government specifically crafted its immigration policy to ban Asian immigration in the late 1800s, and make life as uncomfortable as possible for the “Yellow Peril.” Asians were not allowed to become citizens until the ‘40s. Certainly, blacks have faced a different level of discrimination over the years, but the Asian experience was at least as bad as that faced by Latinos (who you claim should get affirmative action), and probably worse. Moreover, Asians have historically been much smaller in number than blacks and Latinos in the U.S., and have had much less effective advocacy groups.
I have a friend who’s Japanese-American. His family lost everything when they were interned – the government seized it all. By the time they did get their reparations in the 1980s, however, they were middle-class. This was before they got their check (which was only $20,000). They managed to advance without reparations – as have many, many blacks, by the way.
Lots of families were screwed by the United States government (including my white family), not just blacks. Most have not gotten reparations. I’m actually for reparations for blacks, partly so there won’t be any more excuses and we can put the “legacy of slavery” issue to bed – also, I think a reparations program can be beneficial to America as a whole if done the right way. I’d prefer the reparations go into the school system, because the way for blacks to become more successful is not at the collegiate level through affirmative action or by giving money to individual families, it’s at the elementary and high school level.
Yeah, the Irish were just welcomed with open arms…
