Cat Jones, is that because terms like “Chinese-French” or “Algerian-French” are simply linguistically impossible in French? That is, if you created the equivalent of such English-language terms, would they seem hopelessly ungrammatical in French? Would they be imcomprehensible? Would they seem offensive? Would they seem weird and unusual?
Also, what are members of those two black communities called? What about other sorts of black French residents? For instance, what would a black American who had emigrated to France be called?
Feel free to correct me, anyone who knows more about France than I do, but it is my understanding that it is considered extremely rude - and inherently racist - to mention peoples’ race or ethnic background in France, so there ISN’T really an accepted term. One of my best friends is French and she told me that when she came to the US, she was really shocked by the labeling of people by race or ethnicity. It took her awhile to accept that it wasn’t necessarily and automatically racist. We’ve had some interesting discussions on the topic - there’s an idea in France that the general refusal to admit that anyone might be of a different background than someone else will instigate integration, but it doesn’t seem to have worked all that well.
O.K., but that doesn’t quite answer my question. I’d like an answer from someone who has lived a long time in France and can give us somewhat of a definitive answer. Is the claim that it’s literally impossible to label a French person of a particular ethnic group in French by any such term? Are there terms that are only used informally but which are never used officially? This is a question which it would be useful to get an answer from someone who really knows the situation very well.
My French isn’t good enough to answer that, but although in Spanish you can create that kind of terms, it would sound more like you’re describing mixed ancestry than like you’re saying “my foreparents were from X and I’m from Y.” “African-American” sounds to me like “one parent African, one American” (I know that’s not what it means, but it’s my gut reaction to that king of terms).
One of my classmates was “gallega nacida en la Vall d’Hebron,” “a Galician born in (the biggest hospital in Barcelona).” She was born, bred and raised in Barcelona but in many ways was more Galega than Catalan; both her parents were Galegos; she had three native languages (Spanish, Catalan and Galego). She would never have described herself as Gallego-Catalana or Catalano-Gallega, it was “gallega nacida en la Vall d’Hebron” or “de Barcelona de padres gallegos” (from Barcelona, parents from Galicia).
I’m “navarra de madre catalana” or even “PTV de madre catalana”: I’m Navarrese (or “from Pamplona since about the time Pamplona got founded”), my mother’s Catalan. I’d never describe myself as being Catalano-Navarra, though.
Apologies if this post is muddled, I’m replying to more than one person.
Wendell Wagner whilst we are waiting for someone like Clairobscur or Lazzto turn up we’ll have to make do with my seven and a half years of living and working in Paris. In fact I’d be interested to hear Lazz’s views. I do not claim to speak for all of France, just ***my experience ***living in one of the more ethnically diverse neighbourhoods of Paris (20th district) and working with professionals from a range of industries.
If I seemed to claim that “that it’s literally impossible to label a French person of a particular ethnic group in French by any such term” you misunderstand.
You can label people according to ethnic origin, as I tried to imply in my 3rd paragraph, but the point is you are one thing or another. You may find someone who has a blended ethnic identity who chooses to self-identify as such - they would say something like “half Lebanese half Belgian” or “Francais d’origine Algerienne”. I also respectfully refer you to the first part of my original post. I know people who have Polish parents or grandparents, a Spanish parent, Italian grandparents, etc. They all self-identify as French. French period, nothing more nothing less. French father, Polish mother ? the kids are French. A French person would find it hard to conceive why you would want or need to muddy the waters, if pushed - for example if you ask about their surname - they admit that “my father is originally from Spain” but in their own minds they are French. All French citizens are equal after all - mind you as in Spain people will often specify the region of France they come from - I’m Breton, I’m from Alsace etc.
The odd ones out would perhaps be those who are second generation Portuguese who seem to equally identify as French and Portuguese but again, they say one thing or another depending on the context.
Young professionals who come to France from places like Tunisia, Lebanon, Mali, to finish their studies and perhaps choose to take French citizenship in order to make life easier tend to simply self-label with their original nationality.
In the building where I live there are : “les anglo-saxons” or “les rosbifs” (me, Brit & Irish husband), le Tunisien (not born in France), les Africains (from Ghana), les Roumains. The rest are French despite one guy having Italian Parents, one lady with a to Belgian mother born in Algeria, two women with Algerian parents, one girl whose parents are Turkish … The husband and I are considered, along with the young Romanians, to be the most “foreign”.
The exception might be the island of Réunion - everyone who lives there is French but there are distinct communities - the “Chinois”, the “Hindous”, the “Oreilles” (lit. ears, Europeans whose ears get burnt red by the sun) and I think there’s another group but the labels are only used there.
Kyla it’s not so much that it’s rude, altho’ a lot of the words used are pejorative, it just isn’t deemed necessary - so yes I guess rude in the sense of “why do you feel you need to tell me that?”. For one thing someone’s name generally “betrays” for lack of better expression their ethnic origin. AFAIK there is no box to tick on the census from for either ethnic origin or religion (but I’m not sure).
The black Africans are referred to as, um, “Africain” unless you know the particular country they come from in which case you would be more precise. Exactly the same thing for people from North Africa who may also be labelled “Arabes” (the Kabyle don’t like this !) or sometimes “musulman”. Those from the French Carribean are politically French and usually identified as such or as “francais d’outre mer” (lit. French from the overseas regions) with, if necessary to clarify, a physical description, “with Martiniqe origins”. I remember one guy when I asked where he was from replied “South West France” “Ah near Bordeaux ?” I ventured “No, Guadeloupe, very south and very west.” was his neat reply.
In the Paris region people might allude to someone being from “the suburbs” or as the “issu de l’immigration” as a coded way of suggesting they are not of European stock without specifying if they are “blcak African” or “North African”.
An African-American would be “americain” or “anglo-saxon” (which is seen as more of a cultural type) again perhaps with a physical descriptor if necessary for identification purposes.
Maybe 50, 100 years down the line things will be different but for now, in answer to the OP - No, not in France.
Spanish census forms don’t include either.
We gave a huge surprise to an African-American student by asking him “you’re Anglo, aren’t you?”, “we” being myself and two Hispanic students I was tutoring and the location being Miami - we’d been speaking in Spanish (it was chemistry, I’d been using cooking examples and we all cooked in Spanish, not in English) and well, yeah, he was black as coal but spoke only English, so… to us three, Anglo. Not every Anglo is a WASP, otherwise the other initials wouldn’t be there
Good example !