Gah I hijacked and went off subject. My apologies.
Interesting method of responding.
She could die. 12 year olds are at a much, much higher risk for death from childbirth or complications with pregnancy than adult women. Their babies are also at high risk for many health problems, and are almost always underweight at birth.
I sometimes wonder why it always seems to be men, and never women, pushing for lower/no age of consent. I’ve come up with a lot of unsavory theories, but the nicest and perhaps most logical one is that many men simply don’t understand what puberty is like for girls or what is involved in pregnancy and bearing a child. Setting aside all issues of emotional maturity and informed consent, a 12 year old is not physically ready to handle pregnancy. She and the baby may both survive, but at a great cost to the health of both.
If:
The law is trying to keep the “mature” from taking advantage of the “immature” with the best, economically viable methods available to us. And it works ok.
That is to say I know there’s plenty enough guys that wouldn’t mind taking advantage of the statistically probable immaturity of a thirteen year old to screw them. Sad, but thats how it is. Even a movie director I otherwise respect immensely (Polanski), did just that. He lied and said he was a photographer (for some reason), poured her full of champagne, and screwed her.
If the law were changed to allow sex by consent, then we will have laywers arguing that “she knew exactly what she was doing”, “she was starstruck” etc. Such a law puts the responsibility where it does not belong.
On the other hand I have a hard time believing that a lot of thirteen year old girls get their lives destroyed because they can not go to bed with people over 18 without the the latter commiting a crime.
I am not saying that this law in all situations will be identical to (my) moral sentiment, but it is the best we got to try to avoid genuinely unwanted situations.
“Too much liberty?”; “Youth Rights?”
I fear you are misunderstanding what the age of consent laws and their enforcement is all about, Mr.2001, and I do not hold out much hope you will, but I’ll explain some things as best I can.
Statutory Rape laws are enacted for the protection of children. They most definitely are not a means of stripping anyone under 18 of their right to sex. They are not used to criminialize two 16 year olds from messing around together, but are used, in a vast majority of cases, to stop 19+ year olds from convincing 11 year olds that sex with them will be great fun. These laws are not being used to stop 14 year old kids from playing doctor, they are used to stop predators.
In the eyes of the law, and in a vast majority of people, children are not fully capable of making determinations for themselves. You see this thought, not just in age of consent cases, but also in the juvenile criminal justice system. Kids under the age of 17 (in most jurisdictions) are treated as being not as responsible for their actions as adults. If you feel that 11 year olds are capable of granting fully informed consent, you also need to treat them as adults for their criminal actions. I don’t know your feelings about the juvenile justice system, but I have yet to find anybody who thinks we should do away with that also.
Another aspect of informed consent is the susceptiblity of children to suggestion and duress. They are so much more likely to go along with what an adult recommends than another adult is. That’s why there are so many child molesters who honestly believe they had an 8 year old consent to sexual intercourse. It is the same reason many of these sexual assault laws apply to the mentally challenged, because they do not have the ability to give informed consent. Just saying Yes, I’d like to have sex with you is not consent.
Finally, I’ll go back to my first post. I find it disgusting that you seem to think you are erring on the “side of liberty” when you advocate the getting rid of age of consent laws. It has nothing to do with the oppression of your theoretically able to consent 13 year old’s rights and everything to do with the protection of those who can’t.
I’ve known, personally, plenty of women who think they are stupid. It just isn’t an issue for them because it was the younger girls going after the older guys. I’ve known plenty of girls who were raped (as a comparison for nonconsentual sex), and none of them felt that having sex with a 21 year old when they were 14 was anything but consentual.
Who cares if you need to be 21 to purchase alcohol when your neighbor gives it to you? That’s my “unsavory” theory.
Wait wait wait wait. First, 8??? How’d an 8 year old get involved in this? I think all of us agree that there needs to be some law about it. Obviously, an 8 year old is NOT ready to have sex. Willingly, or not. Did someone say that it’s going to ruin the kids’ life? And even if noone did, and it doesn’t, usually, who the hell are you to tell someone that their love isn’t good enough for society to recognize? Maybe it is true love, you don’t know, don’t judge. Now, people are used. This happens. It happens with adults, too. And with minor-minor situations. I don’t know anything about the situation with the director… but she was under the influence, which changes the situation entirely. Regardless of age. It all goes back to, can teens think on their own and should they be able to make decisions. I’d say yes. There should be a limit… but not 18. Which is why so many states have lower restrictions.
I’m female, btw. And I’m not having sex with 50 year old men, either. And actually, I don’t have a lot of respect for most teens, and aiding them in their decisions isn’t really a bad idea. But we’re a republic, and not a socialist country. That means the gov’t is supposed to stay out of your business whenever possible. If we’re going to have laws about people who we believe don’t make the best decisions, then us Dopers better watch out. Lots of silliness here.
Yes, I know, that’s probably a silly sounding argument, since we hardly abide by that any longer. But we should, and that’s my belief, which creates my belief on this subject. What it really comes down to, if you remove everything that sounds important but doesn’t really matter, is whether teens should be given full rights. Now… voting I can see waiting for. I disagree with the drinking restriction, but that’s another thread. Judging love by age is just overbearing and slightly annoying. Now, like I said earlier, there should be some limit, maybe 12 or something. Or maybe 14 or 15. That would be reasonable. I’d say that about that age, you should be responsible for your actions in society, not your parents. Legally speaking, anyway. That includes trying people as minors/full adults judiciously. They’ve started that, anyway, at least that I’ve noticed. Trying kids, 13, 14 ish, as full adults instead of minors. Just thought I’d say that it’s not a good argument, because that, in itself, shows that some kids are different. And calling it rape, is a disgrace, that should be changed immediately. I was raped as a young child, and if it had been willing, I’d have protested against it being called rape. I understand why it is… and that goes back to the idea that noone under 18 can consent, which goes back to the idea that unless you’re 18 or over, you’re incapable of thinking.
Well… Yes and no. Mr2001 agrees, but only with a gun to his head.
Missed that. Thanks. I do tend to agree with mr2001. I’m an idealist, though, and do realize that.
If:
I do agree with your sentiments about love. I say love will prevail even with an age of consent, believe it or not.
Assume for the argument that we are talking about a 14 year old girl and a 35 year old man. How many of such relationships would be love, how many would be sex? My guess: 99 out of 100 sex. And I believe I am being generous here. We´re speaking mutual love. How many mutual sex? My guess: 5 out of 100. Maybe less. How many guy sex, girl scared: most.
So do the 6 benevolent cases out of 100 justify the rest?
That’s a pretty unfair judgement. And who’s talking about 35 year olds? The law is anyone above 18. 14 year olds are NOT that ignorant. They aren’t. And if they are, then they deserve it for being stupid. Responsibility for your actions just doesn’t exist anymore, does it.
Wait a minute… deserve what?
Gah I should have been clearer. My apologies. Part of the argument was that young minors can not/do not take care of the kids if they become pregnant. Which is a repurcussion of having sex, need I not say. The parents are stuck with the child if the minor decides they aren’t able to/don’t want to take care of it. Hence the comment above. I was referring to the parents.
I can never tell whether being a parent gives me more or less insight into matters like these.
I disagree on so many levels with the folks who want ‘equal rights’ for kids that I’m unsure where to start.
A child is not simply a small adult. I thought that we had gone through this during the Victorian era, but i guess that i was mistaken. children have their own needs, wants, and culture independent of adults. Despite the growing pains that most kids go through during the transition from child to adult, and the sometimes arbitrary nature of age classes, most people, children included, are happy with this arrangement. It is a matter of intellect, maturity, and size. A child can grow along any of these lines incredibly during these years, or they may not. While there are exceptions to these guidelines, a line MUST be drawn somewhere as a matter of law. otherwise, as has been pointed out, you rely on individual judgements often made by people who have an economic or other stake in a decision. I’d rather leave it up to our courts and legislature to make that determination that the local mine owner or chimney-sweep service.
I keep hearing about how these 12 and 14 year olds will ‘deal’ with the consequences of their actions. That just seems unrealistic. as it stands, I am responsible for my 11 year old son as far as contract law, finnancial penalties, etc. While I don’t like it, i can’t see divorcing myself from him at this age just because he thinks that he can handle adult responsibilities.
The whole point is that teens fall along a broad spectrum of maturity and responsibility, and as a society, we have made a decision to protect them all until they are ready to take on their full rights. Part of our entire system of a social safety net- and i think it makes us a stronger society.
Like i said, i guess that i just don’t understand where you are coming from.
Though, as has been noted, these arguments are usually about kids engaging in questionable activities (sex, smoking, drinking, etc. ) rather than civic duties (voting, military service, etc.). Heck, my son thinks he’s ready to go out and kill Iraquis today (thank you, media). should he ba able to apply to the army?
I wonder what Libertarian has to say about this thread? just curious- i’m getting a lot of ‘personal responsibility’ and ‘full rights’ thrown at me. Though i believe that Libertarian philosophy has built-in safeguards for minors, the mentally impaired, etc.
Ergh. Not argument, discussion. My apologies again. I have been ill all morning and my brain is kind of bleh.
Depends who you’re talking to, Stonebrow. Some libertarians agree with the 18-consent, and some don’t. I’m a libertarian, and I think society’s been ruined to the point that some level of law on the subject is necessary, (not 18, but 12/14 ish is relatively reasonable). But I’m not happy about it, and I think it’s pathetic that we need it.
Ok, if you don’t know i won’t tell, that just scared me for a second.
Stonebow
This is obviously true.
Quite so. Do you suppose they know this?
The society I see seems somewhat torn on the issue. On the one hand, I hear the kind of talk you give. On the other, I see young teens having sex with older people (well, not see see but I was a teen once, too). So that’s interesting, and IMO worth discussing.
Well, when I was a teen I wanted to have sex with one of my teachers. Big time, oh I adored her. Smart, funny, pretty, etc. Let me repeat that: I wanted to have sex with her.
Did I know what sex was? Did I know how to perform it? Did I know or expect how it would feel? Was I knowledgeable about the potential consequences?
I want you to answer those questions.
erislover-
your situaton with the teacher is one of the reasons that I have such strong objections to your position, though.
For most kids, most of the adults that they meet will have some sort of explicit or implicit control over them, or being on a higher rung in a developed hierarchy. this either makes the adult more attractive romatically, or, should the adult press the issue, makes it harder for the child to resist those advances.
sex with teacher is pretty much universally bad, as is ex with boss, social worker, etc. however, add in the child/adult dynamic, and it is criminal. as it should be. it is not up to the child- it is up to the adult to understand that they are imposing themselves on someone who can not, by nature of the relationship, give meaningful consent.
do we want to discuss minors having sex with adults that have no social ties to them? i imagine that you could some up with a hypothtical that i’d not find completely objectionable. but as a matter of law? no thanks.
btw- i tend to think that this is a gender-neutral situation, though others might feel differently. though i do notice that it does seem to be mostly older men wanting to have sex with young girls. And yes, i would include a 19 yearm old as an ‘older man’ if the girl in question is 13-14.
How am I supposed to know what you knew/didn’t know? Perhaps I misunderstand the question. If you’re referring to ME, whether I know, yes, I do. Yes, yes, and yes. But if you’re referring to you… I can’t answer that. If you’re referring to whether I think teens in general know, yes, they do. Every one I know, knows, anyway. And not all are sexually active either, but they are abstaining mostly because they aren’t in love with someone, and don’t have someone with whom they wish to be with. I’m 16, btw, just for general knowledge. But if I felt like having sex at a younger age, regardless of the age of my partner, then I would’ve done so, and I would’ve taken full responsibility for any repercussions (excuse the above miss spellings, like I said, my brain is kind of fuzzy) which could stem from it. But that’s why I said that my “there shouldn’t be a law about this at all” idea is idealist and not realistic. Everyone isn’t like me. Which is why I do believe there has to be a law for about 12-14 ish. But quite frankly, if you’re 14 (12 even) and don’t know about sex, then your parents have done something wrong. In today’s society, I mean. Obviously that’s a generalization, but it’s a reasonable one, I think, given that it’s taught it schools. And even if only abstinence is taught, the repercussions are still known. Do rephrase the question though, if I didn’t just answer it, if you would.
Thank you for answering my questions.
Do you write for drug commercials, too? 
We are talking about why it is criminal. “Because it is a crime” is sorta the wrong response 
OK. So we can have a person approached for sexual favors in an employment scenario seek redress under harassment laws. We can do this because the person is able to consent to sex, but is being put in such a situation where their consent to sex is not based on a desire to have sex. We consider this form of coercion a crime.
Why wouldn’t the other be considered a crime, even if the kid could meaningfully consent?
Of course, because it is criminal. We already covered that.
Funny, I was going to say that it was mostly younger girls who wanted to have sex with older men.