Fucking a. The irony of my first sentence is lost now. if you don’t know i won’t tell, I didn’t ask you. Note the bolded name of Stonebow and the following quoted passages. Only the first sentence was addressed to you.
I interpreted his name as a reference as to who you were quoting. My mistake.
It was a reference to who I was quoting. It was also indicative of who I was responding to. Those often go hand in hand, you see, 
Yep, perfectly logical when thought about. Durn brain.
They get in the way sometimes, don’t they? 
Yes they do.
erislover, I think you do a disservice to yourself when you misread another poster’s response. At no point did Stonebow rely on the “It’s bad because it’s illegal argument,” she rather argued about the inherent power/heirarchical difference between children and teachers. Saying that he/she did is clearly a mistatement. She said sex with a teacher is universally bad, AND it is illegal. If you are truly still confused as to why people would think sex with children is bad, you may want to reread the thread.
**
These women think that all age of consent laws are stupid? I certainly know women who’d approve of changes in current laws (I myself would have no problem with lowering the age of consent to 16 in states that have it set higher), but I’ve never met one that thought we’d be better off if there was no age of consent at all. Why? Again, I suspect one reason is because women in general have a better understanding than some men of exactly how painful sex could be for a girl who is not yet physically developed enough to be ready for it and why it’s such a bad idea for a girl of 12 (or younger…) to become sexually active or pregnant. Questions of consent, maturity, psychological harm, and providing for the children-of-children don’t even need to come into it for it to be clear that abolishing all age of consent laws could have very real and very bad physical consequences for children.
It does. Hardship drivers licenses, emancipation, early admission to state schools, exceptions to child labor laws, etc. etc. The law merely holds that this magical state of “mature youth” you envision is not the norm and that we cannot reasonably exspect minors to be responsible adults.
You are simply wrong. The weight of the evidence shows that any given 15-year old will have a certain level of maturity, same for 16-year olds, and on up.
If I understand you, the fundamental flaw is that because a few unique individuals are surprisingly mature for their age, we needlessly assign all people of a certain age to non-adult status.
Excuse me? Right now, you “apply for adulthood” by reaching a certain birthday, or by using legal means to get privileges not normally offered to your age group.
If sex isn’t an economic activity, then why so many, many posts about the cost of childcare? Besides, sex can be an economic activity, at least in Nevada!
if you don’t know i won’t tell
What number do you have in mind? Most illegitimate children (many of whom may be wanted, FWIW and no matter how short-sighted the mothers may be) are born to teenage mothers and have adult fathers. This scenario is the accept stat by both rabid right wingers crying for welfare reform and bleeding heart liberals demanding better state-supported child care.
The CDC site is down! Check there for stats.
Age of consent laws are not designed to control minors, they are designed to limit what adults may do. A severely retarded adult man, for instance, may be in guardianship and unable to give consent.
Okay, well if there should be some limit, how should be make that judgment? Should we use the information we have about development and behavior? Do you see where this leads?
Stonebow
Give me time! Right now my craven lust seems to stop at 24-year olds, but by the time I’m 60 I may well be drooling over 13-year old boys.
I am starting to wonder though, if maybe Mr2001 and his ilk don’t imagine that 13-year girls would be seeking them out, if only those dratted laws weren’t in the way.
Slight hijack
RandySpears
On the original thread, we covered the facts: Polanksi was a photographer for a number of European magazines, and the girls mother instigated the photo session. What he actually did was, IMHO, have sex with an underage girl who may have seemed to consent - she “acted” consensual because she was a minor and in a difficult situation. Exactly why we need these laws.
I think I read it fine, Hamlet. There are two statements there,
and
Seems clear enough to me, and I phrased the rest of my post under that reading.
Lamia
Not all of them, no.
erislover: my question is simple—adults are made to be accountable for their choices. Even if they are irresponsible, they are not let off the hook. They can be forced to honor a contract, they can be forced to pay child support. Do you think that children should be forced to do the same thing? Held to the same level as adults, even though they are still living at home and are dependent on their parents? And if you do not think they should, why not?
I have stated my case already, but I’ll do it again if you like. I said 12-14 ish (maybe 13?? same age group, anyway) because it is pretty evident that physical dangers are more prevalent in children of that age. Also, I’m not against judging people. I’m against judging people unfairly, and the gov’t sticking it’s nose where it doesn’t belong. Which, I believe, is in the moral business and family affairs of people. Unfortunately (I said this already, I know) society does not raise children to be responsible. Neither do the parents, which is why the law must get involved. For the children. I object to this sort of law merely on an idealistic level, as I said earlier. The age of consent was set at 18 because it’s the age of citizenship. Based on pure law, that makes sense, because if you aren’t 18, you aren’t a legally consenting person, on a federal level. Perfectly logical, really, and I understand why.
But. Real life doesn’t fit that sort of stereotype. States have lowered the age from 18 (most states, that I’m aware of), because it’s quite obvious that someone, say, my age, should be able to consent to such things. The question is, should it be lowered further? I’d say yes, but I do understand the argument against it. I’ve met many kids younger than me, 12, 13, 14, who are quite able to make decisions about sex. It depends on what area you’re talking about, too. And the type of child it is, some are more mature than most adults. Which is why I chose 12-14. Obviously it could be negotiated a bit. Maybe I just grew up in a really mature group of people.
I’m still figuring out the ways of the posting. I had tried to break it up into paragraphs, but obviously it didn’t work. Someday I’ll get it right.
I’m sorry, I was talking about whether or not a child could consent.
first off, to clarify, Stonebow = HE (as in, husband to FaerieBeth)
to address ‘if you don’t know i won’t tell’ there are reasons why we don’t afford children the status of adults unless there are extenuating circumstances. It largely coincides with longer lifespans, people requiring more education to be self-supporting, and putting off having children until later in life. similarly, we limit the range of responsibilities (read:opportunities for life-limiting mistakes) that children are allowed.
And we also frown on other adults who seek to violate that space. as with many things, it’s not simply a personal choice- if allowed regulalry, it is something that is detrimental to society at large.
It’s not a matter of kids’ rights- it’s adult responsibility. My son wants to be able to stay up all night, play video games and skip school whenever he wants to. guess what- it’s not going to happen. kids often want things without understanding long-term, or even short term (day after) consequences of actions, especially ones as complex as sexual interaction.
sorry, have no idea why the ‘going down’ smiley ended up in my post. must have been some sort of fruedian slip.
will try to preview in the future.
I wasn’t talking about kids rights, really. Experience tends to come with time, I’m well aware of that. Part of what I was talking about was the way the laws effect maturity, in the sense that kids will be as mature as you make them. But actually, I’ve changed my mind oh-so-slightly. I think 14 is too young, 15 would be a better bet. I do keep forgetting that I don’t spend time with people my age, anymore, and I haven’t really done so since I was 10-ish, and the few I did spend time with, were quite mature. It really shouldn’t be a legal issue, and it’s a pity that it’s become one, that was my other point I was talking about earlier. Parents shouldn’t need that sort of gov’t interference to raise their children safely, and it’s pathetic that they’ve raised their kids that way. Obviously I have a unpopular opinion, and I appreciate the other views, even if I do disagree.
The heart of the matter as i percieve it. With more knowledge and more experience unfortunately comes the power to screw people over. Sad but true. A twelve year old girl is pretty easily screwed (figuratively speaking). Sad but true. Most budding Libertarians even.
Many people don’t mind screwing other people over. Some even enjoy it. Hopefully they are not the majority.
There are countless stories of kids / young adults having their lives f**ked up because of sexual abuse, even with a 18 year sexual consent. It’s a fact. I know it, you guys know it. This is what the law is for. To protect those people to the extent it is possible.
May I offer a slightly modified Utilitarian view for your Libertarian. “Least suffering and for as few people as possible”; Through sexual abuse.
(bolding mine,)
Is this a GOOD thing? We should seriously question our preconceptions about how power should work in adult-child relationships.
erislover
Maybe this is the disconnect. When I was a younger girl (14-16) my friends and I weren’t all that interested in having sex ( intercourse or oral sex) with either guys our own age or older guys. We did however, want to go out with guys from two to five years older. There was way more pressure to have sex with the older guys- not from the guys , but from the situation. Thre was always a fear that “if I don’t sleep with him, he’ll think I’m a baby and dump me” or “if I won’t sleep with him, he’ll findand older girl who will”. Not that one 14 year old can’t pressure another into sex, but a 14 year old girl is not afraid that if she won’t sleep with her 14 year old boyfriend he’ll find a 17 year old who will. Not the most mature reason to have sex, but a big part of it when I was that age.
Do you have a cite for this? Sexual harassment is not a crime in New York, and simply because consent is not based on the desire to have sex does not negate the consent. People don’t go to prison for threatening to fire people who don’t sleep with them. They lose lawsiuts for that. Interestingly, in NY, an inmate is incapable of consenting to sex with a correctional employee. While an employer-adult employe relationship is not seen as coercive enough to eliminate the possibility of true consent, the inmate -correctional employee is. The question is where do minor- adult relationships fall along that line. Most involving a relatively small age difference probably fall closer to the employer -adult employee end. Those involving a teacher, coach, scout leader, tutor, father of the kids the minor babysits, relative, friend’s 'parent, friend of the minor’s parent, religious leader, the employer of a minor, etc , fall way over on the inmate- correction officer end. And I suspect most, if not nearly all, of the adult minor relationships with a significant age difference fall into one of those categories. Certainly, all of those i’ve heard of did.