Agnostic/Atheist Epiphanies

Great Debates
21

OK. An atheist is someone who doesn’t believe in god(s). I am an atheist. I am also an aunicornist, an aastrologist, an aThorist, an aZeusist.

Why don’t I believe in god? Because I have I have never been given a good reason to believe such an entity exists. If I were given such evidence I would probably change my mind. Some people insist therefore insist that I cannot be an atheist, since I’m open to changing my mind I must be an agnostic.

But that’s silly. I don’t believe in unicorns. I would change my mind if I saw a unicorn, studied specimens, etc. That doesn’t mean that I am agnostic as to whether unicorns exist or not, I don’t believe in unicorns. Same thing with god. I’ve had people try to tell me that there is a difference between believing that god does not exist and not believing that god exists. Semantics. It means the same thing!

I’ve also had people insist that I was a Christian, even though I didn’t know it…simply because I wasn’t a nihilist. Arg. You poor, deluded people…it makes me sad sometimes, all the bizarre things people believe…

22

I’m still at the stage of violent atheism.

I wasn’t baptized until I was 2 years old and my mother had given birth to my sister. My parents had not intended to baptize me and planned to allow me decide for myself when I was old enough. Under heavy pressure from my mother’s father, my parents relented and had me and my sister baptized. My grandfather is extremely dogmatic and was one of the pioneers of my city’s Catholic school board. He wanted to see his grandkids to grow up to be “good Catholics.”

At the age of ten my grandfather’s influence had faded and my parents decided to stop going to church. It was about this time that my mother decided that she wasn’t happy being a nurse and decided to go back to university. She had religious issues of her own to work out and actually ended up getting a BA in Religious Studies.

Throughout my childhood I kept a respect for “God” and really didn’t question “my” beliefs. By the time high school came around I certainly was not Catholic and only exhibited a few christian tendencies. I still believed in a power greater than myself, but I became extremely skeptical of bible and took shelter in the tent of science. Ironically my grandfather greatly encouraged me to become interested in science.

My atheistic epiphany occurred in my grade 12 year. Jordan, my best friend from the age of 6, had recently become involved in some “questionable” christian activities and I could notice the effect they had on him. A youth minister named Tod, 10 years my senior, had a profound influence on Jordan. He became a extreme fundamentalist. He tossed reason out the window and devoted every waking minute to his new found christian values. He lost the ability to evaluate anything rationally. “If you don’t Jesus Christ as your savior you will go to hell.” He became a creationist. His A’s in school dropped to D’s. [sarcasm]Christ had shown him the way. [/sarcasm]

This profound change in our relationship led to the reevaluation of my own set of beliefs. “How could he be so blind?” became “how could I be so blind?” I haven’t spoken to him in about 8 months after spending time with him virtually everyday or the previous ten years. I hate what he’s become.

My religious epiphany came at a time when I was in process of establishing my identity as an adult. As I begin to prepare myself to leave for university thanks to a fairly large scholarship, I wonder what will become of my friend.
[sarcam]I pray that one day he will see as I do[/sarcasm]

Good thread. Very interesting.

23

Ptahlis said:

when I read this just now I had to stifle uncontrollable laughter to avoid waking up my grouchy dad (who, BTW, is hardcore of this very message board). I have to say, I’ve never quite heard it in that phraseology.

As to my epiphany, it was weird and preceded by nothing at all–I had gone to church (always Assembly of God) since I was freakin born, never questioned it (or at least subconsciously repressed any questions I might have had), but was always bored with it. Just thought that was the way it was supposed to be. Then one Sunday I was in church, like normal, singing songs, like normal, I had my eyes closed and my hands raised, and I heard the pastor say “Can’t you feel it? Can’t you feel His presence in the room??” and I opened my eyes, expecting to be hit by some blinding wave of emotion and looked up–and it was the coldest, emptiest thing I have ever felt. Not only did I not feel “His presence”, I felt totally silly and naked and barren. People were looking up, addressing this invisible watcher in the sky, and I thought, “There’s nothing there. They’re looking at nothing. They’re talking to nothing.” And after that, I tried to point out some specific instance where I had felt, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that presence. I came up with nothing. Since then I’ve tried to “find Jesus” a few times, but every time about halfway through I’d realize I was faking my tears and confessions. Then I’d have an almost uncontrollable urge to laugh.

24

Sounds like your friend fell in love.

25

My parents were always atheists (I think since the death of my twin sister) and seldom attended church. They did send us kids to a variety of Sunday schools; I suppose because they had been raised Christian and wanted us to have the choice, or at least figure it out on our own.

In one of the towns my dad’s teaching career landed us in, the neighbors had a son my age, and we became good friends. I attended church with his family for about three years and even was immersion baptised. Then, when I was in the sixth grade, a traveling evangelist/elder type person, (this particular sect called him a missionary) started coming to the church. I developed a kind of crush on him, and followed him around and listened to everything he said. He was said to have a direct line of communication with God, and would preach to the congregation and single individuals out, call them by name, and tell them what God wanted them to do.

He visited the church about once a month. During one of these visits, I was unobtrusively following him around before the sermon, and I heard him talking to the people about all the other people, gathering information. When he went into his trance-like state later while he was preaching the sermon, he used the information that he had gathered beforehand and pretended it was words from God.

My crush was crushed, and it started me questioning everything, and asking my parents about their beliefs, and by the time I was in 8th grade, I came to the point of being a hard-core atheist. Since then I have somewhat softened into agnosticism

26

Yes, he did fall in love. He fell in love with not having to think for himself. Life is black and white for him now. Everything is completely wrong or completely right. All of “his” opinions are regurgitated fundamentalist tripe. The exclusionary edicts, the literalism, the selective ignorance, the preachy arrogance: it all amounts to letting others think for you.

27

Sounds like you’re painting things black and white, too.

28

Interesting thread. I seem to recall that of all Western countries, the US has the most people who attend church. I used to work for a european company, and used to visit europe regularly (GB, Germany, Belgium, Holland). What struck me the most about europe, was how empty the churches were-in most churches, there were just a handful of people on Sundays. I wonder if organized religions are in some sort of secular decline, and wonder what this might lead to. Of course, this does not mean that people are becoming more rational-astrology and homeopathy are making a BIG comeback in W. Europe these days.

29

I come from a very Baptist background. Both my mothers father and granfateher were are ministers. I guess I had more than 1 also.

#1. when I was 15 my family became homeless (one of those realestate swindles like they sale on late night TV was the cause). My grandparents lived in a small apartment and couldn’t take us in (6 of us including Mom). My mom asked for prayer and assistance from our church, they did pray but didn’t offer any finincial help. There was a guy who offered to take me and my brothers in allowing my Mom and sister to move in temporarily with our grandparents. To make a long story short, not long after we’d moved in he admitted in church to being gay. With the predictable results that he was demonized by the pastor and congregation.

The most horrible rumors would surface (some small, some bordering on accusing him of molestation. It was a nightmare for us, and him. I couldn’t understand how all these “Godly” people were behaving so poorly to someone who sacrificed his home, money and food (He refused to accept money from my Mom. so that she’d be able to get back on her feet more quickly) for a family in need.

#2. In seminary, I really began having a crises of faith. Until the I’d truly believed the emotional reaction I’d have were religious experiences. The more I studied the bible and religion in general the less faith I had. Mainly other than spirited discussions with instrutors and my pastor I kept my feelings to myself. All along I felt more and more guilty for preaching something I had serious doubts about.

#3. I was working at out churchs’ food kitchen. We served food to the needy in downtown Oakland M-F and I volunteered regularly. Our was a surprisingly non-religious ministry (maybe owing to Cecil Williams in SF), other than a prayer before the meal was served, we took a mostly hands off approach, only witnessing when approached. During a break one of our regular “clients” sat next to me on the church stairs and began to praise our efforts, and the faith we must have held to do it everyday. I told her I didn’t do it out of faith, but that I did it because I believed I was being resposible for alleviating a situation for which I could at least help (or something to that effect) and was surprised that I belived everyword I’d said (something that stopped happening in the pulpit at least a year previously) it was then that the guilt disappeared and I felt better about myself.

30

Well, I was raised an atheist, and was doing quite well with it until I started second guessing my believe. I found enough religious teachers who seemed to have a good head about them to decide to convert. But when I got to a real church I ran into mostly phoneys that I got very disgusted. I eventually made the leap of faith to true Christian belief and did finally find a lot of people who thought like I did. Ultimately my doubts got the better of me – but I think the real turning point away from belief in some just God was reading Confessions of a Crap Artist by Philip Dick. Even though this book had no religious bent, the portrait it drew of someone who had crazy and unprovable ideas was enough for me to decide to get back on the wide path.

31

Some things are black and white. But everything is not. I admit that I’m fairly black and white about certain issues, but I still listen very carefully to the opposition. Jordan, on the other hand, dismisses anything that is remotely different from what he has been told to think. He will not even listen to any coherent arguments countering his position. Everything is right or wrong based on a literal interpretation of a book that’s been been edited countless times over the last 2000 years.

32

Thought Number One: This universe far too vast and complex for some sociopathic deity to be bumbling around smiting little humans and then telling them they are the center of creation. That sounds a lot more like my drunken uncle than an explanation for existence.

Thought Number Two: This universe is so vast and complex that it is well worth exploring–without said drunken uncle telling me not to check behind the drawn curtains.

But hey, let’s not forget that good Christians, good Muslims, good Zoroastrians, and good atheists all have something very important in common: they are all good people.

33

I’m not sure which is more complex, the universe ex-homo, or the brain that comprehends it. At any rate, I do like your but hey clause! :wink:

34

Sofa King: Inre Thought Number One - maybe, just maybe, you’re onto something. Is your uncle usually out of the room on what seems a benign errand when God shows up? Howzabout vice versa?

Waste
Flick Lives!

35

Well, if you take a weak minded person you can pretty much make them live their lives based on a cookbook if you wanted. To lump all theistic belief systems into that same boat is a little unfair.

But get the guy a copy of “Confessions” – it’s innocuous enough not to offend his beliefs but insidious never-the-less.

36

I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school for my first 4 years, was an altar boy, baptised, and confirmed.

One day, when I was about 12, a thought ran through my head. Why am I putting all of this faith into something I can’t see - something invisible - when I could be putting that same faith in myself? After all, I was likely gonna run into difficult situations in life that would tax me. If I invested this effort into myself, and instilled faith in myself, and believed in myself, then I’d be able to better weather situations that came along. Why not invest in myself, instead of an imaginary thing?

I mentioned this to my parents, who looked at me with a kind of glazed-over look. They didn’t say much, as I recall. I felt completely secure with this view.

So, that was my epiphany. That, and later, reading E.O. Wilson’s statement of the purpose of religion: “Religion is simply an enabling mechanism for survival.”. That pretty much does it for me.

37

I can’t really remember when I stopped believing in God - it probably wasn’t too long after I stopped believing in Santa Claus, I still have a letter my Dad wrote me explaining why they told me there was a Santa Claus after I had read that he was not real in some book and confronted them about the deception, and that was from Christmas '76, I was 4 (my father was a teacher and taught me to read when I was almost 4). I do remember when I started realizing WHY religion existed, though I had trouble understanding how people could believe in God - I could see thinking of God the same way my Dad explained how Santa was real in people’s hearts even though he wasn’t an actual person, but I knew people he was much more real to.

Anyway, I was a pretty vocal atheist for 17 or 18 years, though I learned fast when not to let people know. Then, when I was 22, I took LSD for the first time and had a vision that got me to thinking that maybe there was something to the idea that there was a part of us that wasn’t physical and may be part of some bigger design, but I was also aware that it could have just been a fabrication of my mind - it was enough that I stopped thinking of myself as an atheist and more of an agnostic - I had no faith, but I accepted the possibility that there MIGHT be a God.

A few years later I shifted a bit more towards belief in God. Oddly enough, this was related to my not having a stereo in my car - I commuted about 3 hours a day and when my radio was stolen I had to find something else to fill the time with. I would sing to myself, daydream, or just try to absorb details about my surroundings. I started seeing odd coincedences that seemed like some intelligence was answering my questions about life with subtle but unmistakable signs. The more I looked, the more I saw, and I started to have the feeling I was being observed by an intelligence that seemed to be able to listen in on my thoughts, that cared about me, had a really wicked sense of humor, and that wanted to communicate to me. I know already how I would attack these thoughts and feelings as an atheist because I heard people say the same things before I came to see it and would just dismiss it as people seeing signs because they WANT to - and I don’t really care. It’s real for me, it brings me some peace and it’s not stopping me from exploring my world and trying to understand it better - in fact, it has encouraged me. My ‘God’ appreciates my curiosity.

38

Lemur866:
Good one. That describes atheism well.
VileOrb:
Dictionaries are not written by people who understand atheism. They are written by people who understand words. The term atheism was invented by people who doubtless weren’t atheists in the modern sense of the term, either. The link: http://www.atheists.org/drive.thru/faqs.html gives a very good view into what an atheist is according to atheists themselves.

39

This is sort of a hijack and sort of an attempt to define the terms of the OP.

I read the FAQ at the site Derleth linked to above. As I see it they are arguing semantics and when they back themselves into a corner they end up denying the existence of, if not any god, at least denying the existence of all specific gods mentioned.

Also, this is a limited group of people who have decided to call themselves Atheists (note the capital) and also to redefine the term which existed before they existed. Thus Derleth says that the dictionary definition is not
“in the modern sense”. I call myself an atheist too but I use the definition as it has been used for a long time. When they start talking about Atheism meaning “free from theism” they don’t follow through to say that theism means belief in god. Instead they say that theism means religion and so this is “freedom from religion”. If you’re going to start breaking the word down into pieces, why stop halfway?

There’s the whole semantic issue of whether or not you “believe” in a tree. Well, let’s say it another way. I acknowledge the existence of the tree that I can see through the window here where I sit. I do not acknowledge the existence of the hypothetical tree that my hypothetical friend says exists five feet to the left (I can see that spot and there is no tree there). Also, I deny the existence of god, as I can not perceive one. If someone wants to say, “God is the forces of the universe such as gravity.” Well, ok I’ll acknowledge that such forces exist, but now you’re redefining the word “god”.

They do, sort of, admit to denying the existence of god by saying that they can prove by scientific process that there never has been one like any that religions have as yet proposed.

So it all comes down to semantics, which is essentially the understanding of words, which is what the people who wrote the dictionary know about. To get at what the dictionary means you need to keep looking up all the words in the definitions until you find you understand each word fully. Because the people you point me toward are understandably worried about everyone’s definition of the word ‘god’, they can’t just accept the dictionary definition the way it is written. So, instead, they dance around the issue. I would rather see them define the term and then deny it.

Do we have to go through very carefully defining each of these loaded words? Maybe we do.

Let me give a few of them a try. I already gave you Atheist and Agnostic. I think the most difficult one is Believe. Here goes. From the dictionary I quoted above.
believe - “1. To accept as true or real 2. To credit with veracity 3. To have confidence in the truth, value, or existence of something” …There’s more but it relates to having doubts, like “I believe you’re going to continue to stand by your statement that an atheist does not deny the existence of a god.”
I’m OK with this definition. The problem comes when looking up “belief” because the word faith comes up as well as trust and confidence. This gets a little messy. I believe that one of the aforementioned trees exists but do I have faith in the tree? No. I have faith that if I were to try to walk rapidly through the tree I would hurt myself. When you are careful with your grammar as well as your vocabulary these words can still work. An Atheist may have faith in the consistency of scientific knowledge. The only reason they have to believe that gravity will go on working as it always has is that up to now it hasn’t changed. That does not prove that it won’t fail tomorrow but I have faith that it will go on as always.

So, let me define faith from my own head and you can see how well this coincides with your own definition, or the dictionary’s definition if you prefer.

Faith - 1. Confidence, without undeniable proof, in the accuracy of or existence of something. 2. Confidence in the performance of someone or something.

Thus, I have a strong faith that football exists and a slightly lesser faith that the Redskins will beat the Ravens in the Superbowl.

What else should I define? Never mind. You take a try at a few or give me new definitions of the ones I gave you. I still say an atheist denies the existence of god, especially any specific God or gods. And I include in my definiton of atheist the person or persons who wrote the FAQ you pointed me toward.

I suggest you define the word “god” for a start. If you give a sufficiently broad definition, I will retract my statement about denying a god. But, I will instead be forced to point out that most people have a narrower definition of the word. If you have little trust in your proof that the christian god does not exist, then you are probably an agnostic. I submit that the difference between an agnostic and an atheist is that the atheist is more confident of their logic. Do you believe that the sun will rise tomorrow? I do. If you’re thinking about arguing about the possibilty that it won’t happen, you’re not ready to be an atheist. I admit that events could possibly, in the next few hours, occur to destroy the world or whatever. But they won’t. I have faith. I am an atheist.

40

Almost forgot. Thanks for the link Derleth, and thanks for making me think about this a bit to fine-tune my beliefs. I hope I can perform a similar service for you.