Agnostic/Atheist Epiphanies

Great Debates
41

Sacred cow, VileOrb! That was one hell of a hijack, easily worthy of it’s own thread. And here I am, trying so hard to avoid semantic arguments. Lots of interesting points in your post that I’m going to carefully avoid, except to say that I’ve always just thought of an atheist as a person with no belief in any sort deity or universal godhead or whatever, and an agnostic as someone who thinks there might be but doesn’t beleive that it matters. Of course, that’s just me. Visit several your neighborhood churches and ask people the definition of a Christian and see how many answers you get.

Anyhow, I just wanted to see if there were other people out there who had what is commonly referred to as “a religious experience” when they realized that they were non-believers. I wondered if I was the only one because most of the agnostics/atheists I know grew up never believing anything else. For me, it was a blissful coming-home sort of feeling, similar to what I’ve heard born-again Christians describe. The main difference seems to be that they found their comfort by shutting all the doors and windows in their minds and turning on a single light, where mine came from walking through the door and seeing all the wonderful stuff waiting outside. Or maybe a more modern analogy would be that they only get one TV channel and I just got a direct access cable.

42

VileOrb:
I didn’t give you the best link. I directed you to a Socratic discusstion when a simple FAQ was called for. Sorry. Here is a page more to the point: http://www.atheists.org/drive.thru/atheism.html It is from the same site, but it explains things much better. Get back to me after you’ve read it.
lucie:
I have no ‘sacred cows’. I’m not Hindu. :slight_smile: If VileOrb wants to debate after he’s followed my new link, I’ll start a new thread and end this hijack.

43

I had found that part too and read it. Actually, I read quite a bit of that site. I decided these were not people like me. These are people who are bit skittish of persecution by the dominant religious groups of our culture and so they dance around the semantics and shy away from making direct denial of god. I don’t here any Christian churches jumping up and down to say, “We’re right and you’re wrong” either. They say “we’re right” and leave it at that.

I must say that this whole thread has brought me a number of small epiphanies and I am hoping for more.

Why don’t the Catholics sit down and debate it out with the Born Agains? I think that they have found that such debate creates MORE division in their faiths rather than less, because as they start defining their terms more precisely they find people within their own faith with different definitions. Perhaps this group of Atheists has learned that lesson and wishes to avoid the arguments in the hopes of uniting a larger group of Atheists. Personally, I want to refine my beliefs as much as possible.

Does anyone have any info on medical or other physical studies on the effects of epiphany. I know there can be greater blood flow to the extremeties and other things mot dissimilar to orgasm. Once someone has had a significant epiphany about something you can no longer debate with that person in a mormal manner. They know beyond all doubt that they are right. Could we perhaps find that there is some physical way to encourage epiphanies? Discourage them? Nullify old ones? Some scary mind control issues come up but I wouldn’t mind nullifying all my feelings of absolute truth and rethinking my assumptions.

I talked last night to some devout Episcapalians (sp?). They were surprised to here that you could have a non-religious epiphany at all. I sent them away with some James Joyce short stories and I already got a call this morning saying that, “Yes, the feeling of correctness and enlightenment that those stories evokes is very similar to religious epiphany.” I was a little surprised that they admitted it so readily but they are fairly openminded, educated, and good people. I told them that it was perfectly possible to have a bigger non-religious epiphany but that those stories were the only thing I had handy that could provide tham with an immediate taste of what I was talking about.

I wonder how many Christians are reading this thread. Are we witnessing to them? I would just like to say to them that the chances of them converting me to their beliefs by witnessing is exactly the same as the chances of them converting to atheism from reading this thread.

Somehow, my parents have a knack for “deprogramming”. Three times they had Moonies come to the door and all three times my parents talked them into leaving their church and going back home to their families. Twice they talked Mormon teenagers into dropping the evangelism and going to school. Mom says she is working on a couple of Born Agains now. She says they are neglecting their children and is close to convincing them of this. My parents are christians, but they have not even tried to convert any of these people to their specific beliefs. I have great parents.

I seem to be in full hijack mode these days. Sorry lucie. I hope that my hijacks have been interesting. I have recently converted from a GQ lurker to a GD junkie. Thus, my lowish post count as compared to my longevity.

And lucie, why are you avoiding the tough and senstive qustions? That’s what we’re here on this board for, isn’t it?

44

Vile Orb said:

The clearest feeling of epiphany I can remember was when I was a young child trying to learn long division. Up until that point, everything in school had always come very easily to me, and I had every expectation that it would always be that way of course. Then, I was confronted with long division. I can still remember sitting at my desk at home just bawling away because no matter how I tried to grasp the concept it eluded me. Other kids in my class had the hang of it, yet I was totally at sea. Struggling over the problems it just clicked. Just like that. One minute I could not do it at all and the next I could not only do it, but I understood the relationships between all the numbers and operations. Just Bang! and I grasped it completely. The power of that bolt from the blue, that instantaneous clarity of thought and understanding has never been matched yet in my life, but I certainly hope to experience it again.

45

My own epiphany, and the only experience I’ve ever had that deserves to be labeled as such, came in the bath-tub when I was in 3rd Grade. My parents are non-practicing Christians, and I was a non-practicing theist since I figured that there had to be something, since the universe was created, yes? (a simpler version of the the old watch/watchmaker argument for god, really). While thinking about this in a general sort of way (in the tub, as I said) it occured to me that you don’t need God to explain existence – that it is no more unreasonable to assume that the Universe “just is” than it is to assume that god “just is.” This is pretty basic stuff philosophically, but it’s downright profound for an 8 year old.

Re: this most recent hijack regarding atheism v. agnosticism: Semantics, ugh! I don’t believe in god the same way I don’t believe that the Giants will win the next three Super Bowls. I just don’t think it’s very likely. “Atheist” sums up that position pretty well, so stop telling me I’m not an atheist, people.

egkelley:

I think you mean “religious decline,” as secularization is the exact opposite of religious rebirth or growth. Assuming that is what you mean, then the answer is yes, in some places more than others. In some countries (UK and/or France, and Japan, I think) atheists have even cracked the 50% mark. In the U.S., depending on who you believe, 90-95% of the population believes in some kind of god. Our progress is very slow here the States. . .

46

I had a significant epiphany this weekend. I’m probably not really ready to explain it very well but I wanted to bump this thread in hopes that others would respond. I find this thread very helpful in prompting new thoughts for myself.

Anyway here’s my new epiphany. Trust yourself. A long time ago I started picking apart what I thought and finding that I was lying to myself quite a bit. I have been working very hard to eliminate those lies. However, in that process I have developed a habit of second guessing myself constantly. This was bad. I found myself searching for someone comepletely trustworthy who could crosscheck my thoughts for errors. I was yearning for a higher power to lean on when I failed. When I leaned, I fell. Hmmm… Stand up straight Vile, you won’t fall over so easy that way. If you gotta lean, lean into the wind and step forward. I know this is not a clear metaphor but it works for me. And it is PURELY metaphor. I am really talking about ceasing the constant search for some invisible power and start making better use of my own emotional, mental, and physical strengths. It would be so much easier to have a God to fall back on. I would love for God to appear and say, “Hey Vile, listen up. Do it this way and everything will be fine.” What a relief it would be. Certainty at last. No risks. Unfortunately, no such thing is going to happen.

I still want to be careful of my thoughts. I have found that racism is not as easily abolished from my opinions as I would like it to be. But, I have found that my friends trust my opinions more than I do. Smart friends. Educated friends. Wise friends. They trust MY opinion. They seek out my advice. Frequently. Why, then, have I been so reluctant to take my own advice? My best answer to that is that I have been in a place for three years without making any new friends to speak of. Well, I take that back. There is one, but she got married to a jerk a year and a half ago and I haven’t spoken to her more than once a month since. Anyway, I kept wanting to move away from this place. But, I thought maybe I was the one who was wrong and that if I could straighten myself out that I would make friends and find that life was good. The harder I tried to make myself a better person, the worse things got. Until this weekend. Epiphany struck. Trust yourself, there’s no one better to trust. So, I will be getting out of the midwest ASAP.

P.S. Did Derleth start a thread on denfinitions? I didn’t see it. I’ve been preoccupied lately. I think I will create something. I’ll call it “What is Atheism?”

47

I remember being young – seven or eight – and thinking how embarassing it would be if everyone spent so much energy on something that didn’t exist. I remember being sure that was the truth – that we were wasting our time on God. I just saw little tiny people scurrying about, waving their hands and crying and worrying.

Later, in college, a friend who was wrestling with a particularly oppressive God (he hated her C+ in calculus) said, “it doesn’t matter whether I believe in God or not, he exists.” I remember that same image of foolish little creatures, us.

48

What brought me to atheism was a growing unease with what I was being told about the Bible. I’d left Jehovah’s Witnesses several years earlier but continued studying diligently. I had just finished reading the last of the C.S. Lewis commentaries. But something was wrong. I studied and studied scripture, but it just felt less and less right.

Then, one evening, I was lying in bed and an odd thought popped into my head. I asked myself, “Have you ever personally seen anything happen that was incontrovertibly the Hand of God?” I gave it some thought, then answered my question, “NO.”

I then asked myself, “Do you think there’s even the remotest chance that an angel might appear before you in this, your moment of doubt?” I knew the answer that was welling up in my heart: “NO.” Such things don’t really happen now. “Did they ever?” I wondered. “How could I know?” This was an strange and novel perspective. I toyed with it for a while.

I continued, “If there was, in fact, no God, what would be different from the way things are, right here, AT THIS PRECISE MOMENT?” In a blinding flash, the answer crashed into my skull, “NOTHING!”

Suddenly (and this might sound odd), I noticed that the walls looked “solid” to me. Before that rude awakening I’d always imagined – without realizing it – that the world was suffused with spirit creatures coming and going. But now they were gone.

I’ve been an atheist ever since.

So now I don’t believe in God; I don’t think the idea of God EXPLAINS anything in a way that is more compelling than other points of view, such as Science or Buddhism. As a result, I chose sides by picking the one that exhibits the greatest ability to admit error – Science. Followed by Buddhism, which seeks to eliminate the error-making processes (though it is, unfortunately, not an inherently self-correcting system of thought). Theism, while very nice and comforting, comes in dead last when one measures this kind of honesty, because it demands faith, which is the eternal enemy of frank appraisal.

49

This wasn’t really an epiphany, but it is rather interesting experience. I had this dream about 15 years - I know I was in college, and had already been an atheist since age ten or so. Anyway, in the dream I was sitting in the basement of the house I grew up in. It was bright and sunny outside. Suddenly things got dark and threatening. I heard a voice asking “Do you believe in me.” I just sat there, wondering “What the hell is that?” I hear the voice again “Do you believe in me?” So, I’m thinking “Hmmmm, well, I don’t believe this thing is god, but if it can change the weather at will it is certainly more powerful than me and can kick my ass.” So I hedge my bets and answer out loud “yes,” figuring that if it is god then it already knows I don’t believe so I’m effed anyway, and if it isn’t god, just somebody who can kick my ass, my best bet is to tell it what it wants to hear. And the voice says “ok” and it goes back to a bright sunny day.