AIDS More Widespread Among US Gays than Previously Thought

[gobear]

This is why, while I appreciate the frustration of Gobear, Esprix, Matt, Scott & Co., I also find their attitude a little upsetting. If society is getting a message from the gay community that says, “We know all about AIDS and safe sex. Mind your own business. We are adults and can make our own decisions, thank you very much.” it isn’t going to be very sympathetic five or ten years from now when the new message is, “Look at this tragedy! AIDS is everybody’s problem!”

Um, HIV IS a tragedy and has been for the past two decades. And if you’ll take your head out of your ass, you’ll see that globally AIDS is a heterosexual plague.

In addition, a few minutes of reflection on your part may cause you to realize that safer sex education does not include allowing buttinskis asking, “Ever heard about AIDS???” to hijack threads here at the SDMB. I am in favor of safer sex education, but I’m not in favor of having people assume that I, a gay man who’s been sexually active longer than some of you have been alive, have never heard of safer sex or HIV, and moreover am in need of lessons from any and all passersby.

[Sauron]

*Originally posted by gobear *In addition, a few minutes of reflection on your part may cause you to realize that safer sex education does not include allowing buttinskis asking, “Ever heard about AIDS???” to hijack threads here at the SDMB. I am in favor of safer sex education, but I’m not in favor of having people assume that I, a gay man who’s been sexually active longer than some of you have been alive, have never heard of safer sex or HIV, and moreover am in need of lessons from any and all passersby.

While I agree completely with your stance on an obvious flame-post such as the one you quoted, your second sentence is exactly the attitude that concerns me. Apparently many in the gay and bisexual population are acting precisely as if they’ve never heard of safer sex and HIV.

Maybe when those inevitable flame-posts attempt to hijack a thread, a simple response such as “Yes, I’ve heard of AIDS and I take the appropriate precautions, thanks” would suffice.

We’ve got, what, 25,000 members of this message board, and God knows how many lurkers on a regular or semi-regular basis. While the vast majority of posters here represent a more enlightened human state, some don’t. Seems to me it would serve a greater public good to avoid indulging in those hijacks (whether obvious trolling or no) in an attempt to further reduce the ignorance surrounding HIV.

[Truth_Seeker]

The problem is, Esprix that it won’t be crying wolf. If these trends continue, it really will be a crisis.

I know we are talking about the SDMB where even the lurkers are thoughtful and wise. However, my impression is that the “mind your own business” attitude is becoming widespread. Certainly the infection rate data suggests that more and more people are actively choosing risky behaviors, even if they do know all about safe sex. Look what andygirl wrote, "I feel like a lot of my generation sees AIDS as akin to cancer. Sucks, but it’s manageable. We’re certainly not afraid of it. "

The real risk here is that the general public will start to think of AIDS the same way. “You’re right, it is your business. Having unsafe sex is like smoking. You know the risk, you take the chance. If you catch AIDS or lung cancer, it sucks for you but hey, it’s no national tragedy. Why should we spend our limited resources trying to bail out people who intentionally engage in self-destructive behavior?”

originially posted by gobear
**Um, HIV IS a tragedy and has been for the past two decades. And if you’ll take your head out of your ass, you’ll see that globally AIDS is a heterosexual plague.

**

gobear, as far as most of middle America goes, AIDS is something that happens to other people, it isn’t something that they feel particularly threatened by personally. Statistically, they are correct. A soccer mom in Minnesota is probably more likely to be killed by a lightning strike than by AIDS.

It’s all very well to say that AIDS is everyone’s problem because hetrosexuals can catch it too. But in the U.S. it’s *someone else’s * problem unless you feel you are at risk. If people don’t feel they are personally threatened, then you’ve got to motivate them by compassion. People aren’t very compassionate when their well-meaning concern is thrown back in their faces with “Mind your own business!”

Nor do I find these expressions of concern all that intrusive. These safe sex “public service announcements” only become a hijack when other posters take umbrage.

Anyway, gobear since it annoys you, why not just pre-empt all this? People don’t necessarily know how long you’ve been sexually active, your views on safe sex etc., etc. It’s just a message board, after all. Perhaps you could put a line in your sig with a safe sex message and a link?

[Esprix]

Why does every gay person on this board be expected to represent “the gay point of view” in each and every post?

That’s the message I’m getting here. gobear, matt, andygirl, the rest of us - we must all, from now on, be positive uplifting examples of the gay and lesbian community at all times. Take note, now - no lollygagging!

Esprix

[Sauron]

*Originally posted by Esprix *
That’s the message I’m getting here. gobear, matt, andygirl, the rest of us - we must all, from now on, be positive uplifting examples of the gay and lesbian community at all times. Take note, now - no lollygagging!

Esprix

If that’s the message I’m sending, then I’m saying something wrong. I certainly don’t mean to imply that every gay person here represents the entire gay community.

However, I don’t think you can have it both ways. In a recent thread, a statement was made that went something like “Don’t try to tell the gay community about AIDS or HIV. We’re probably more aware of the situation than anybody else.” That statement, based on the survey results, is false. Or, if it’s true, then that knowledge isn’t being used. And the statement seems to be attempting to represent the gay community.

I’m not suggesting you become Pollyanna (not that there’s anything wrong with that :)). What I am suggesting is that statements similar to the one I paraphrased above do nothing to help foster concern and compassion among other orientations. And before anyone asks, I’m searching for the cite now …

[Esprix]

{sigh}

“Don’t try to tell the gay community here on the SDMB about AIDS or HIV…”

Again, it’s just here. Here. Here here here.

Esprix

[Mockingbird]

It is a bone of contention to the gay posters to have constant(and they are often enough to feel constant), and some straight posters are annoyed because the gay posters dislike it.

Why not read the OP or post over and then try to think if it is appropriate to make a post a warning?

[Narile]

*Originally posted by Esprix *
**Narlile, my point is that the figures presented about research vs. infection rates are wholly inaccurate. Please don’t spread any more ignorance.

Jillgat, where are you?

Esprix **

First of all Esprix, please cite how you know the figures are inaccurate. Just because Beeblebrox makes a sarcastic remark regarding O’Reilly does not mean that there was no cite quoted in the show or the accuracy thereof (I don’t know what the cite was from currently, I checked, but currently the only transcript of the show is on their pay archive site).

So my return to you is until someone cites that the expendatures aren’t lopsided, you don’t go spreading more ignorance either, Ok?

And pldennison same arguement can be said about AIDS, we ‘know’ how to treat it now. And if you say we do even when it mutates, why are so many doctors scared shitless about seeing a variation on the 1918 strain that killed several million?

[Truth_Seeker]

**A recently released study indicates that a majority (77 percent) of the gay and bisexual men in the study who tested HIV positive don’t even realize they have the disease.

**

**I, too, am not surprised that a majority of people who find out they’re positive are caught unawares - “it can never happen to me,” of course.

**

**“Don’t try to tell the gay community here on the SDMB about AIDS or HIV…”

Again, it’s just here. Here. Here here here.

**

Normally, I find irony amusing but not in this case.

I’ve been thinking about Esprix’s comment how there’s no need for safe sex reminders “here on the SDMB.”

From the study,

** Researchers surveyed 5,719 men aged 15 to 29 at dance clubs, bars, health clubs and street locations in Baltimore, Dallas, Los Angeles, Miami, New York and Seattle from 1994 to 2000.

Of the 573 who tested HIV positive, 440, or 77 percent, had not known they were infected with the virus. Around half of those men hadn’t been tested in the past year and half were having anal sex without condoms, said MacKellar.

**

Let’s be conservative and say that out of the 24,000 odd members of the SDMB, 1% of them (240) are gay or bisexual males. Out of those, 24 are probably HIV positive and 18 probably don’t know it.

In other words, it is very likely that there are a dozen or more SDMB registered members who have HIV and don’t know it.

Of course, there are also thousands, probably tens of thousands, of lurkers who visit the SDMB every week.

Esprix, I’m sure you don’t need the reminder. But it can happen here and probably has.

[scott_evil]

Fine, I’m chiming in. I’m the one who’s recently got the nasty “Every hear of AIDS???!??!??!??!?” hijacks.

I’m 30. I don’t know what the younger gay guys are doing, but if they think that they can fuck bareback, contract HIV, and just take pills (at a regimented time every day), and be OK, well that’s just stupid. The meds have side-effects. They cost money.

HIV/AIDS has been part of my life even before I realized I was gay, and even before I became sexually active with men.

While I appreciate the goodwill of those who don’t want me, or anyone else, to be infected, I have to say this: I’ve made it clear several times that I practise safe® sex. I know the facts. I’ve spoken to doctors about my practices, in graphic detail (that’s the joy of having gay doctors - they get it).

I’ve only had a few warnings from my mother. “Just protect yourself,” is the most she’s said. She knows I will. However, I worry about those whose friends, parents, and siblings won’t give them that little reminder. Maybe those are the ones who lurk here and need to see our endless HIV/AIDS debates (and they are endless, it seems).

But let’s take it from the perspective of a lurker. He or she sees these threads, and the simple fact that these threads are here reminds him or her that HIV/AIDS is still a plague.

So we can go back and forth as much as we want, but a lurker will hopefully realize there’s something going on. Yes, it’s kind of a manageable disease (but not for long), but it’s still FATAL.

I just don’t want any relationship/sex kind of post ever hijacked again with “Ever hear of AIDS??!??!??!” :rolleyes: No, honey, I’ve been living under a rock for the past 20 years. Yes, I know about AIDS and HIV, I know about safe® sex (probably more than you do), and I take the best care of myself in that respect. However, I’m not about to become chaste because of it.

HIV/AIDS affects everyone, but it’s still attached to the gay male community, in some people’s view, as if it was our fault. Does anyone really think we asked for this? Those poor guys in the 70s and early 80s had no idea what was going on.

At least now we kind of know. I wish I could say that “we know,” but we don’t, do we?

• s.e.

[Sauron]

Okay, my Internet connection went kaflooey last night, but in continuation of my earlier post:

I would agree with all who say “Don’t hijack the threads with ‘Ever hear of AIDS?’ posts” if statistics backed up the claim that HIV and AIDS are being dealt with in the gay community. But the study cited above indicates the exact opposite is happening – HIV is infecting people who don’t even know they have it, people who are engaging in risky behaviors.

Does that mean it’s right to hijack any post in which a gay poster mentions sex? Of course not. But if someone does do such a thing, my contention is that it would be a better option to simply acknowledge the question, answer it, and move on. Constantly reiterating that the gay community is completely aware of this problem doesn’t solve anything, and in light of the study results looks somewhat ridiculous.

Recent quotes from posters (all in one thread) include:

Originally posted by jayjay
Casual sex != unsafe sex, especially for gay men, who are inundated with safe sex information, HIV awareness, and, quite often, free condoms. If there’s a socialized-in-a-gay-community gay man alive in North America who doesn’t know about HIV and safe sex, I’ll eat my QuickCam.

Originally posted by matt_mcl
Straight folks, we love you and bless you, but could you please accept that maybe we know a little bit more about our own sexuality and sexual/social practices than you do?

Originally posted by gobear
3. We know about HIV. Every gay men in North America knows about HIV, knows how to apply rubbers, knows the relative risks of various sexual acts. We are adults who are able to make our own decisions about our health. Thank you for your concern , but we’re big boys now.

4. We’re gay men; you’re not. It is entirely possible that we know much more about our lives, our community, and our risks than you do. For you to lecture us is really presumptuous.

[gobear]

OK, there are some idiots out there engaging in unsafe activities, and they should be called out. But most of the more vocal gay male Dopers (Esprix, Matt_Mcl, Scott Evil, me are on record as testing HIV negative and being conscientious about safer sex. The presumption that A. all gay men routinely indulge in unsafe, B. are unaware of HIV, and need you to educate them is annoying.

Now knock it off or I’ll come over and redecorate your house!

[Sauron]

See, I was hoping I’d irritate a gay man enough to get that threat. I’ve got a duvet that I just can’t match, and I need some advice.

I guess what I’m asking for is a little patience. Rather than calling someone an idiot when they behave idiotically (like hijacking a thread with a safe-sex reminder), just acknowledge the post and move on. I can’t help to continue the hijack.

I’m not presuming to know squat about HIV or AIDS, and I’m certainly not gonna hijack said threads (unless a poster starts talking about their practice of engaging in unsafe behaviors). But it seems that passing benignly over the occasional hijack would be a better option than flaming the poster who commits the hijack.

I could be wrong, though.

[Truth_Seeker]

**The presumption that A. all gay men routinely indulge in unsafe, B. are unaware of HIV, and need you to educate them is annoying.

**
This is a different issue than the practical concern about a hijack.

I agree with Sauron that the best thing to do is simply not to make a big deal about it. If you don’t, the occasional safe sex “public service announcement” won’t hijack the thread at all. A full-blown hijack would be jerkish in most cases, however, the equivalent, of , “You be careful out there, OK?” is not.

I also think this new information puts a different light on things. It may, arguably, be unreasonable to assume that gays and bisexuals don’t know about safe sex. It is very reasonable to assume that male gays and bisexuals don’t realize 1 out of 10 are likely to be HIV positive and that 3 out of 4 don’t know they are positive. That’s very big news and nobody, gay or straight, knew about it until three days ago.

Anyway, we should all keep this in perspective. I think we can all agree that there are far worse things that happen to gay folks than having relative strangers express concern for their welfare. It might be occasionally annoying, but it’s really a pretty decent impulse, don’t you think?

[Esprix]

I now fully expect to see every thread referencing - even tangentially, mind you (because, in case anyone missed it, that was part of the big gripe, that when a gay poster would mention going to tai chi class, brushing their teeth, or reading the newspaper, someone chimed in with a safe sex warning, because, as we all know, all gay men are constantly thinking about their sexuality 24/7) - sexual behavior (gay, straight, bisexual, or otherwise) to contain a “friendly” safe sex reminder.

Fair’s fair, after all.

Esprix

[gobear]

It might be occasionally annoying, but it’s really a pretty decent impulse, don’t you think?

Well, I’ve had to tell my own mother to cool it with the unwanted advice, so I don’t see why I should spare anybody else.

I, for one, don’t get the fuss that people have about safe vs. unsafe sex. AFAIC, everybody but me is HIV+. That’s the only sensible approach, to assume that everybody is poz and to act accordingly. The idea of “oh, this guy looks healthy, he’s probably negative, so I’ll leave the rubbers off just this once” is insane and completely outside my universe of possible decisions. Asking a guy if he’s poz is stupid because HE WILL LIE more often than not. Don’t look skeptical–it happens all the time.

Everybody is poz, just like an HIV version of The Omega Man. Act with that thought in your head, take responsibility for your own health, and you’ll more than likely escape infection.

[Sauron]

*Originally posted by Esprix *
**I now fully expect to see every thread referencing - even tangentially, mind you (because, in case anyone missed it, that was part of the big gripe, that when a gay poster would mention going to tai chi class, brushing their teeth, or reading the newspaper, someone chimed in with a safe sex warning, because, as we all know, all gay men are constantly thinking about their sexuality 24/7) - sexual behavior (gay, straight, bisexual, or otherwise) to contain a “friendly” safe sex reminder.

Fair’s fair, after all.

Esprix **

I agree that fair’s fair. ANYBODY referencing sexual behavior outside of a monogamous, committed, long-term relationship should be cautioned.

However, I’m clueless as to your comments above re: brushing teeth, tai chi, etc. Folks bring this up when sex isn’t even mentioned? Obviously I haven’t been hanging out in the right threads. I would think the behavior you reference borders on stalking.

Surely, though, you can see some benefit to an occasional reminder/plea/what-have-you where appropriate in threads, given the survey results?

[Sauron]

*Originally posted by gobear *
**AFAIC, everybody but me is HIV+. That’s the only sensible approach, to assume that everybody is poz and to act accordingly. The idea of “oh, this guy looks healthy, he’s probably negative, so I’ll leave the rubbers off just this once” is insane and completely outside my universe of possible decisions. Asking a guy if he’s poz is stupid because HE WILL LIE more often than not. Don’t look skeptical–it happens all the time.

Everybody is poz, just like an HIV version of The Omega Man. Act with that thought in your head, take responsibility for your own health, and you’ll more than likely escape infection. **

This is the best approach, in my opinion, and I salute you for it. We just need to spread that message as best we can.

[Truth_Seeker]

*Originally posted by gobear *
**
Well, I’ve had to tell my own mother to cool it with the unwanted advice, so I don’t see why I should spare anybody else.
**

Shame on you! Now go put on a sweater.

Esprix
I agree that fair’s fair and that a safe-sex public service announcement isn’t out of place in any thread referencing potentially unsafe sex. However, lose the quotes around “friendly.” As far as I can tell, most of these reminders have been made in good faith out of genuine concern. I don’t think this is really an appropriate topic for point-scoring.

[Esprix]

Sauron, evidently you did miss them. It seemed de rigeur for a while there for the OP to be usually by scott evil with a thread title like, “Why I like comic books,” and someone would feel compelled, based on things said in other threads, to do a drive-by posting saying, “BE SAFE DON’T GET AIDS!!!” This is what brought on the initial torrent of us saying, “OK, we get it, shut up.” (I’ll leave it to scott to provide cites, if anyone wants them.)

Truth, as stated above, these aren’t “friendly,” these are fucking annoying. If half of those people had posted in an appropriate sex-related thread a genuinely concerned, “Please, let’s all remember to be safe,” none of us would be having this discussion.

Esprix