This reminds me of the joke:
If the pilot screws up, the pilot dies.
If ATC screws up, the pilot still dies.
I guess my concerns are along the same lines as mnemosyne. It’s the potential for distraction that would worry me, more so than the actual communications. Seven planes in five minutes is not nothing, and would presumably call for quick decisions, and those decisions may come slower if he’s also concentrating on explaining and listening to his kid. What with clearing some for landing, lining some up, and clearing some for takeoff, is there a risk of these planes crossing paths?
Certainly, I’m not a pilot, and I guess I don’t understand why ground control would not be a potentially dangerous environment, if the controller is clearing planes for taking off and landing. Maybe someone taking that view could explain further.
The link in the OP refers to ‘JetBlue 171’. JetBlue is a fairly well known carrier, I’d guess the aircraft might have been something like a 737 or similar. Ever check the price of a 737?
Even an accident with zero fatalities or injuries is probably a multi-million dollar incident for the carrier, both with repair costs and revenue loss.
Also, the FAA can be a real stickler when it comes to what they expect with carriers safety procedures. Is it wrong to expect the same behavior from the FAA when it comes to the actions of ATC?
My dad was a Flight Service Specialist. This is different from an Air Traffic Controller, though he did that too before he became a Flight Service Specialist. I spent many hours hanging out in the Flight Service Station (FSS) with him. He lived on the airport, so it was close.
Maybe I was a responsible kid, and maybe kids in general were better-behaved in the '70s; but I knew the rules. I could not interfere with his duties. I did get to play with the teletypes (no transmitting), and I got to colour the weather faxes. I also got to watch him making the weather observations, and listen to communications.
Of course talking on the radio was right out. It never would have occurred to my dad to let me do that, nor to me to ask.
Now, Center…
I don’t remember going to ATC until I was an adult. Dad was at FSS by that time, but he still had friends there. I was allowed in under escort on one of his visits. A Secret clearance was required. I had a Secret clearance at the time, but I didn’t have Need To Know; so I would not have been allowed in on my own.
IMO, the controller should be disciplined – perhaps a suspension. But firing seems harsh in this instance.
Really? Your standard of safety is “how many people died because of this specific incident?” I rather think it ought to be “what type of incident or accident could have occurred, what would the consequences have been, and how can we ensure that these types of incidents or accidents don’t occur.” When dealing with aircraft take-off and landings, the consequences usually have the possibility of being catastrophic, and therefore demand the application of redundant and rigid rules and procedures.
Just quickly scanning today’s CADORS, there were a half dozen events involving air traffic controllers. There was one in which an aircraft was given an incorrect or misleading instruction (cleared for take-off while on a taxiway, then had to rush the line up and take-off due to incoming traffic), another plane had to execute a missed approach due to another aircraft still being on the runway. There’s one where the controller cleared a plane for take-off before another plane had left the runway. There’s another one where two planes were cleared for take-off too closely together, and loss of separation occurred at low altitude. Another with a miscommunication about a flight route, which the controller caught, but not fast enough to ensure that separation was ensured.
That’s just today, that’s just in Canada (well one in Japan with a Canadian plane), and that’s just the events that are reported (there’s reason to believe a lot more happens and never gets reported).
Tenerife is a good example of what can happen when two planes are on the same runway at the same time. GOL1907 is what can happen when two planes collide. ATC were involved in that one too.
I don’t want ATC distracted, at any stage of flight or ground manoeuvring.
I’m guessing this comes as news to you, but not everyone loves being around children.
I’ll tell you part of what bothers me about this; you hear parents talking all the time about how their children are the most important thing in the world to them. When that ATC is at work, his job has to be the most important thing in his world; I can see a potential for ugly conflict here. I’ve seen it at work many times; when someone brings their kid into work, the kid takes their attention (and usually the attention of everyone around them). It’s annoying in an office; it completely inappropriate (as in could end in deaths) in an air traffic control tower.
Spud, you are one of those who doesn’t get it. It doesn’t matter if no planes crashed, it doesn’t matter if no people died or were injured, it doesn’t matter if no flights were delayed or luggage misdirected. You don’t get it. It was INAPPROPRIATE. It was unseemly, stupid, ill-thought, misplaced, not a proper thing to do. Does the FAA have to start sending letters out to air traffic controllers now, with instructions on to not bring your kid and give him a kick by putting him on the microphone? How about if air traffic controllers start showing up for work and strip naked? No planes would crash, what’s the harm? How about if they started just wanking off, right there in the control tower, during the slow stretches? Anybody die? Any luggage lost? (I’m not picking on air traffic controllers in particular, these theoretical questions could apply to anyone with any job. Because, apparently, ‘inappropriate behavior’ is something of a mystery and examples of such have to be brought up.) Cecil Adams in one of his books wrote an answer to a question, saying something like, “Sheesh, you people don’t understand this basic thing, next they’ll have to start writing instructions on rolls of toilet paper for you.”
Clips of this were circulating around the pilot boards a couple days ago. Most folks were amused. Now that it’s a big new story, the consensus seems to be “Big deal” amongst the pilots. I’d have to agree. The difference of opinion between the professional pilot communities and this board seems to be pretty marked.
I can understand that pilots might have an attitude of no harm, no foul. I’m guessing that some might be amused that normal protocol/decorum was breached (face it, a breach of “the rules” can be funny when it happens at your workplace or in your industry). It’s also funny that people are really freaking out over this, and it’s all over the news.
I also think it’s possible to chuckle about this, and say that this guy should not be fired, but still think that allowing the kid to provide instructions over the radio was a very stupid thing to do from a professional standpoint. I understand the urge to protect this guy - and I personally don’t think he should be fired - but what he did was definitely unprofessional and embarrassing to his employer.
I saw the headline on the BBC as ‘child directs air traffic.’ Clicked on it, surprised, and lo and behold, turned out it was the Dad directing air traffic with the kid as his mouthpiece. No big deal. I’m pretty sure pilots can cope with hearing a kid’s voice. If they couldn’t, I’d be worried.
Taking on board what others have said about kids being distracting, then perhaps it was inappropriate having the kid doing this, but that depends on the control room and the kid. If there had been an accident then everyone would wonder if the child’s activity had contributed to it. It could make it more difficult to figure out the real cause. Probably the kind of work where having kids involved isn’t the best idea, and that’s why it was unusual enough to become news in the first place. But it still doesn’t sound like anything so serious that the ATC should be sacked for this one incident.
911 is a terrible comparison. Doctor’s office is better; I get the impression from some pilots on here that a taxi cab office might be a more appropriate comparison, but that’s because they’re more confident about flights than some passengers are.
I’ve never even been in an air control tower, and can only guess. But while it is true that the guy should have anticipated possible discipline, I’m doubtful that safety was compromised. Quite to the contrary, I’d bet the guy was more alert than usual. (Errors might be likely when someone’s starting to daydream about their next coffeebreak, but that wouldn’t be the case here.)
I’m a professional pilot so I’ll weigh in briefly.
First up, the kid was giving take off clearances and frequency changes to departures which means Dad is not a ground controller, he is a tower controller. No big deal, just clearing up a misconception that seems to have crept in up-thread. His Dad is basically responsible for the runway, he controls landings and take-offs, he needs to make sure no one collides with anyone else on the runway. A ground controller is essentially responsible for movements from the runway to the parking positions, but not on the runway itself.
Having said that, I laughed when I saw this on the news. This is definitely a cock up by the controller but on the other hand he obviously didn’t think he was doing something exceptionally wrong otherwise he wouldn’t have put himself in a position where every aircraft and plane spotter with an air-band scanner in the vicinity can hear his son giving take-off clearances. He doesn’t need to be fired, he needs to be disciplined and educated.
It was definitely a very stupid thing to do. Lets say son gives a take-off clearance and the jet commences take-off, has an engine fire shortly before decision speed, aborts the take-off, runs off the runway and turns into a fiery heap of scrap metal with 180 injured people on-board. Now the accident would have nothing to do with the kid giving the clearance, but the NTSB will listen to the ATC tapes and will be asking “what the hell was your son doing giving a take-off clearance?”
It is definitely not equivalent to a surgeon allowing his son to make an incision. The controller’s work happens in his head and on either paper or computer screens behind the mic. The kid was just a messenger. It would be like having your son in the surgery and handing you a scalpel, still stupid and unprofessional, but nothing like having him make an incision. To compare it to flying an aeroplane, it would be like having your son in the cockpit and getting him to make a radio call, it’s not like having him fly actually control aeroplane.
I don’t wish unemployment on anyone. The decision to terminate someone needs to be weighed up against the loss of experience and the cost to train someone else up to the same standard. If this is an isolated incident then I think it would be far better to keep him, on the other hand if this is part of a pattern of inappropriate behaviour, dismissal may be the only option. In short, I don’t think there is enough evidence at hand to us, the public, in favour of dismissing him outright.
Unfortunately the disciplinary action he faces will likely be effected by this being in the public eye.
I think the fact that he didn’t see a problem with it says something about the state of discipline and adherence to prodecure in that tower.
.Possibly true. Who knows, maybe he’s not the first to have done it, maybe he’s seen older more senior controllers do similar things, or maybe he’s paving new ground all by himself, we don’t know. The act itself is not particularly dangerous, but it can’t go unpunished.
Edit: I know several people who have either let a passenger control an aircraft, or been the passenger allowed to control an aircraft. This kind of thing happens, if done at the right time it’s not unsafe, but it is always stupid as the potential is there to get a big kick up the arse from above.
Again - if they’re breaking that rule, who knows what other rules they’re breaking?
I do not believe it was dangerous - in the sound bite I heard this morning the kid told the pilot he had the OK to move the plane from point A to point B, that is not AIR TRAFFIC control, that is ground control, an entirely different bird. The gut was right there, and telling the kid exactly what and when to say it.
I do not have experience as a trained pilot, but I have flown a small plane sitting in my dads lap at 7 years old … and I have flown as a passenger with a boyfriend and his dad to fly away picknics, and seen small grass strips with a 14 year old doing traffic control because his dad was off doing something else. Granted, a small grass strip with 15 or 20 planes flying in for a picnic is different from JFK, but under direct adult supervision telling a pilot to go somewhere is small potatoes.
That logic doesn’t fly. There may be no other rule this controller thinks is minor enough to break.
I have routinely broken one company rule when flying, why? Because it was impractical and didn’t achieve anything. Did that mean I broke heaps of other rules too? Nope. What’s happened to that rule? It’s been revoked because it was realised that it was a bad rule.
Obviously any rule prohibiting an untrained person to use an ATC radio is not a bad rule, but my point is that you can’t assume that someone who breaks one rule must break others as well. Does someone who exceeds the road speed limit by 5mph also run red lights? No, not necessarily. Does someone who lets their son sit on their lap and drive the car around a parking lot also drive drunk? No, not necessarily.
I’ve always thought, from listening to ATC tapes, that US controllers and pilots have a very undisciplined approach to the radio, does that mean I think they’re undisciplined in other aspects of aviation? No, though a lack of radio discipline and this incident may be related.
In this YouTube link he’s giving take-off clearances and handing over to departures, that is most definitely ATC work, not ground control. Lets not sugar coat this, his son was giving instructions to airborne aircraft, and doing a fine job of it too.
Looks like The Order Of The Perpetually Twisted Knicker has a lot of new members. I see this as reason for a reprimand but firing is too far. The kid merely said the words that his father told him to. It isn’t like a surgeon telling a kid where to cut because the child is capable of repeating a sentence but not capable of a fine surgical cut. He could have brought in a parrot that did as much. I’m much more at ease with this than some seven year old taking the controls of his dad’s Cessna.
Yeah, except it’s not like that at all. The pilots are doing something they do all the time. Ground control is a very rote and routine part of something that oeverall is rote and routine.
The better analogy would be if you went to the doctor’s office and this office had a receptionist that told people which seat to sit in in the waiting room and a kid relayed instructions on where to sit for a couple of minutes.
UP’s post above may show another dynamic at play–some people are downright hostile towards kids, perhaps because they don’t have any and they see some parents doing the whole “precious snowflake” thing.