On a really small plane, they may not want people moving around because it can throw off the balance (seriously).
This whole debate reminds me of when the hot issue being debated about airline travel several years ago was everyone screaming about the pat down policy at TSA security… or maybe it was the full body scanners. Hard to keep track of the exact recreational outrage topic of the week. The people whom I knew personally who would rant and rage about this in person to me because they knew I traveled alot, or would share posts or comment on others via social media, were also people that I knew probably had not been on a plane in years. At best they took one flight every year or two - maybe. It had nearly zero impact but it was the cause of the day in the news or on Facebook posts and they just have to jump on the bandwagon about the violations of personal liberty, freedom, and their personal convenience.
MeanJoe
- Frequent business traveler averaging 50+ flights per year almost always in coach/economy.
- Agrees the airlines should just do away with reclining seats outside of Business Class, First Class, and maybe even Economy/Premium but they won’t because it is a sales benefit for attracting customers.
- 100% believes that the current seating systems means if I paid for that seat and it reclines I am not the offending party for using what I paid for.
- 100% believes that if you know seats recline and you choose to pay for the cheapest seats with the least leg room then you made your choice.
- 99.9% of the time I never recline my seat. Most of my flights are in the 2-3 hour or less range and I don’t find I need to recline to be comfortable.
- I have never been inconvenienced by a passenger in front of me reclining his/her seat to warrant the outrage shown here.
I never recline my seat, because I don’t like it when the person in front of it does it to me.
I’m tall, and I have social anxiety, and I like my personal space, so I don’t like it when the person in front of me puts their seat back. Though I think my dislike of this is mostly a gut reaction to the impression that my personal space is being stolen. (Whether or not that’s reasonable, you be the judge.)
And I can never sleep in planes, so I don’t need to recline my seat anyway.
That being said, that’s just my opinion, and this is one of those issues where either side will never agree with the arguments of the opposite side.
I’ve reclined them a little bit when I’m on empty flights with no one behind me, but they don’t go back very much, yet another advantage of flying Southwest.
I’m a bit cramped in the older planes even without anyone reclining - I feel I have plenty of room on the 700s.
The last bad experience I had was on United when I was flying for NSF and had the federal travel agency get my seat - always in the damn middle.
In this case, the “wrong” seats were an upgrade. That’s not what happened in Saint Cad’s story, so is entirely irrelevant.
So, again, in Saint Cad’s story, he faulted the other guy for not moving. That was the whole point of his story. The other guy could have moved, but chose to recline in front of him. Remember?
So, did this really, really rare crew (some might say imaginary) also specifically not want Saint Cad to move, but would have been perfectly fine with the other guy moving?
That’s an impossible story. Seems like the jerk option is immensely more likely.
The airline says they were an upgrade, the couple themselves say they were merely more economy seats a couple of rows ahead. I haven’t seen airliners where business class is in the same cabin as coach, so I suggested they might have been premium economy seats, but it’s also possible either the airline or the couple was incorrect. My point was that sitting in the “wrong” seats got them removed.
Are you asserting Saint Cad’s crew was imaginary, or are you attempting to call me a liar? (The situation I ran into did not involve reclining; it did involve not moving to another seat and not storing your carry-on baggage in the bin across the aisle, and the flight attendant very nearly confiscated one woman’s carry-on because she had the audacity to stow it under the seat ahead of the empty seat next to her, instead of under the seat directly ahead of her. If those aren’t petty rules, what would you call them?)
What leads you to conclude that the crew would have been any more willing to tolerate the other guy moving? The alternative for the other guy might have been simply not reclining.
On United, the Economy Plus seats look identical to the regular Economy seats, except they have a few more inches of leg room, and are in the same cabin as Economy. The only indication that they are Economy Plus seats is there there’s a label that says “Economy Plus” next to the row number. And I know from both personal experience and what I’ve read on air travel message boards that United’s flight attendants are very strict about not allowing passengers to move from regular Economy to Economy Plus seats.
So I can believe that the couple thought they were sitting in normal Economy seats, but had in fact moved to Economy Plus seats without realizing it. And since United charges more for these seats they are technically an upgrade and the flight attendants can’t allow them to sit there (It would be nice if United had a way for passengers to pay for an upgrade to Economy Plus onboard, though). If the couple either refused to go back to their assigned seats or repeatedly moved back to the Economy Plus seats after being told not to, I can see how it might have escalated to the point where they were removed.
But non of that is really relevant to Saint Cad’s situation. If it took place in the 1980s Premium Economy didn’t exist yet, and if there were really only like 10 people on the flight there should have been plenty of normal economy seats to move to anyway, unless it was like a tiny turboprop or something. I have never seen a flight attendant not allow someone to move to another equivalent seat (key word being “equivalent”). I’ve done it many times. The only time I’ve ever heard them say not to switch seats was on a small turboprop, when it was for weight and balance reasons.
I’ve moved seats all the time on planes- last flight I took a mother and young daughter were seated across the aisle, and I was in the window seat. I swapped with the mom, so mom and daughter could be in the same row.
Didn’t ask the attendant and she didn’t bat an eye. Do it all the time. Now if I had just moved into an empty seat in a premium row (better economy, business, first) I would have likely been asked to move back. But an empty seat within my seat “class”? Happens all the time.
Yup. On an overnight transatlantic flight to Ireland I was on the entire back half of the plane was empty. It was the type with the 3-4-3 seat configuration and many people (including myself) moved back so they could have an entire empty row to lie down on. No one had any issue with it.
On Southwest flights with lots of empty seats the flight attendants encourage people to move around. Of course all seats are equal there, and there are no assigned seats.
The only exception is that when you are going on when the plane stops somewhere they ask you to keep your seats to help with the count of continuing passengers. Then you are allowed to move.
I’m asserting that in the intervening 30 years your memory of the event may possibly be incorrect or so vanishingly rare that it doesn’t matter. Your own sole example of it happening turned out to be a scam to get an upgrade.
Let me refresh your memory of this story:
(bolding mine)
Saint Cad is saying that this person should have chosen another seat to recline in. I pointed out the obvious alternative that Saint Cad could have also just chosen another seat from among the “plenty of empty seats”. You mentioned that 30 years ago a flight crew wouldn’t let you choose another seat and maybe that’s what happened here. I’m pointing out that if this (vanishingly unlikely) scenario is what’s going on, then why should Saint Cad have expected this other person to change their seats on a flight where nobody was allowed to change their seats?
If there is a part of this story that makes Saint Cad not look like the jerk here, he or she probably should have included it. But your excuse for them doesn’t work at all.
And your mom didn’t stop you? Bad parenting.
What 30 years? Saint Cad’s story was back in the 80s, but I didn’t date mine, so why do you assume it was that long ago? (It wasn’t–it was post-9/11–and I have very vivid memories of the attendant who reminded me so much of my 6th-grade music teacher, who also had a cow if anybody didn’t sit in their assigned seating [ok, that one was 30+ years ago]).
I did not intend my example to be the only example of it happening; it was merely the first example I found of somebody removed for sitting where they weren’t supposed to (and while scam is certainly a possibility, it’s not the only one; airlines lie as often as passengers do). Saint Cad has not returned to this thread, so we don’t know what his(?) motivations were, but I am puzzled why you are so very determined to believe that every flight attendant is a model of decorum and good judgment at all times, and none of them ever have an off day.
Back in the day, airlines used to just let us sit at the exit rows. Now, they preferentially sell those rows to people with lots of flight hours, who for some reason want to sit in the seats adjacent to the galley and toilets, with no overhead storage, and with inconvenient in-flight entertainment. That’s why they want you to be polite to me: so that they don’t have to.
And
: the reason my tray doesn’t sit flat when you recline is because it’s propped up on my knees. The further back it comes, the sharper the angle it rises.
Huh. Must be peculiar to the airline you fly, because on Southwest, the tray is not connected to the seat back at all. There is an arm that goes down the base of the seat, so when the occupant reclines, the tray doesn’t tip.
Right. But I think you can slide it back a few inches if you want.
I 6’3". I always manage to get the extended seating for my flights. But then, I haven’t had to make any last minute bookings… I don’t think ever.
I also try to make sure that the seat behind me has the extended leg room. I don’t feel too bad leaning my seat back a bit that way. I also try to get an aisle seat so I can at least stretch one leg out for 20 seconds or so.
I also have size 13 feet. Getting them crammed under the seat in front of me is a trick.
I’m very likely to recline the seat so I can sleep. Trying to sleep at “attention” with my head dropping forward all the time doesn’t work.
The sat in front of me being reclined has never bothered me, at mealtimes or any other.
At times when I was stuck in a nonreclining seat, whether through ignorance or the aftermath of a flight cancellation or what, I was miserable. And the one time I was in a broken seat that would not recline, when I politely informed the gate agent about it (so they could hopefully get it fixed) they upgraded me to 1st on the next leg.
The anti- reclining push seems to be a very recent thing, like the last 3-5 years.
This debate perplexes me.
-
Airplane seats recline. Every person in every reclining seat has a “right” to recline (subject to safety regs, etc.)
-
Reclining a seat interferes with the person in the row behind you. It makes it harder to get in and out of the seat, it makes it harder to eat or otherwise use the tray, and it makes it nearly impossible to use a laptop. Reclining without considering the preferences of the person in the row behind you is, by definition, inconsiderate.
-
If you are the person being reclined into, you have no rights with respect to the person in front of you. Interfering with their right to recline without considering their preferences is, by definition, inconsiderate.
-
To sum up so far: Every passenger has a right to recline. Doing so may be inconsiderate. Interfering with another person reclining also may be inconsiderate.
-
How do we solve this precious dilemma? Well, “communication” is often the first step in consideration. If you want to recline, or if you prefer not being reclined into - talk it out. Worth a try.
-
If you do not want to talk it out - i.e., consider the other person or people whose comfort depends in part on your action - do a rough-hash benefits analysis. Redeye flight? Recline! Morning, weekday flight, mostly business people working - don’t recline! (Here’s some shorthand: If the cabin lights are off, the assumption is that seats will be reclined. If they are on, the assumption is that they will not be.)
Miscellaneous:
“I paid for it”: Yes, you did. You have a right to do a great many things, paid and unpaid, that still make you inconsiderate. (For example: cutting your nails or taking off your socks on the plane.) And, in some scenarios, a jerk.
“It’s a feature of the seat”: Yes, it is. The same seat accommodates a great many scenarios, including daytime and nighttime flights, near-empty flights, extra-large humans, extra-small humans, etc.
“It’s the airline’s fault”: The airlines are in the business of providing services for a profit. More space costs more money, either in a different fare class or a different airline. Or perhaps a different mode of transportation.
“The person in front of me is a jerk who is leaning back.” Sometimes life is like that. Grownups manage to deal.
“The person behind me is blocking my ability to lean back/banging unnecessarily on the seat.”: You may be inconsiderate (or maybe not, depending). The person behind you is a jerk. In this case, the jerk should be disciplined by the flight crew.
In this case he did inform the woman that her reclining presented a problem, and she refused to accommodate him.
I recognize the person in front’s God-given right to recline. I’m not going to change my habits around it though which means that, with my long legs, your seat will be on bump & vibrate mode throughout the flight. I assume this is acceptable to the reclining party since they passed on the option to pay extra for first class seats with more room behind them or making sure the plane has a rear row of reclining seats where they won’t have to be inconvenienced. If it bothers you that much, you always have the option of paying for my upgrade but, otherwise, I assume you’re happy with the arrangement.