Airlines charging extra for "large" fliers.

Great Debates
81

Here’s another thing to consider. Let’s say Passenger A is one of these people of great size. He takes up all of one seat and one third of the next, so he’ll need the extra seat whether he pays for it or not. Passanger B is a pretty big guy, also, but can squeeze into a single seat.

So now we have a situation an which Passanger A has plenty of wiggle room - at least side to side - while Passanger B is jammed into his seat like a sardine. Is it fair to Passanger B to fly in such discomfort while Passanger A gets what is essentially a first class sized seat for free just because he is 30% more overweight?

82

monstro First of all, I want to make clear that (from what I have seen of your posts) you defiantly have my respect. That said, I do take exception to your statement that I am in some way obscuring the issue, and that I have continued to do so throughout this debate. On a deeper (and more upsetting) level, I also feel as if the points that I am making here are not being heard.

I fully understand the reductive argument that if person A needs more space, person A should pay for that space. Further, I am not suggesting that this is an unfair of invalid way to view this issue. Further, I am not suggesting (through some Politically Correct point of view) that businesses have any obligation to make accommodations that they are not required to make by law, and that are not cost effective.

What I am suggesting is that (as individuals) there is a whole other level through which this issue can be seen. A level of (or lack of a better word) compassion (or conscience).

I think that the sacrifices that we are willing to make on behalf of others say a lot about us. What I will say is that if I am ever behind someone in line that the airline is trying to force to buy two seats, I will offer to sit next to them. Will both of us be cramped, I am guessing yes. I guess that my objection (again, or a more moral level) is that folks that are heavy are singled out enough in their day-to-day lives.

So, to conclude, folks can keep seeing this through the law and order, dispassionate capitalism or reductive mathematical formula. That is valid. I am suggesting, however, that there are other filters very worth seeing this issue through.

83

That’s all fine and well, Binarydrone, and I agree that it would be nice if SWA (or anyone else) makes accomodations of their own free will for people who are overweight. However, in the end, it must come down to law because, at some point, someone will demand the extra seat for free, or file a lawsuit for discrimination (however frivilous it may seem) and, like many other issues, it will come down to a legal descision.

Zev Steinhardt

84

Geez, where to begin…I’m 6’2", about 180#. When I fly (and pay for it myself), I ask for an aisle seat or an exit row because I get more legroom (unless the drink cart’s coming past, and I have to get my legs out of the aisle [and to paraphrase Nabokov, excuse the Proustian parentheses]). But even so, I don’t expect the airline to accomodate me for free by removing rows so that I can comfortably sit and stretch out. If I were to want to lay down across a row of seats, I’d expect to have to pay for the whole row.

I have also been in the situation where a very obese person has been in the middle seat. Yes, I’m tall and skinny, and other than leg room, the seat is wide enough for me to have some wiggle-room for my ass–except when the person next to me has half-a-cheek on my seat. Why, oh why, should I be paying full fare for a seat that someone else’s cheek is partially occupying? And I should mention that on the most memorable/infamous of these occasions, she had to raise the armrest between us (and she was not one, very apparently, who believed in personal hygiene). In this case, my fare paid for about 1/4 of this person’s body. Whether her obesity is voluntary or not (i.e. overeating or some kind of symptom), it is not my responsibility to subsidize, literally, her ass on the airplane, though since the rules were not enforced at the time, I had to; the plane was full and I could not move.

Let’s say my seat cost me $400 (though I think it was more like 6 bills). If someone takes up 1/4 of my paid space, shouldn’t he or she, say, buy me $100 worth of drinks on the plane, or make a cash offer? Therefore, it is not out of line for the airline, which charges for space, to charge more for someone taking up more space. If this person takes up 1 1/4 seats, shouldn’t this person have to pay for the space he or she takes up? Or should I, merely because I’m skinny, have to subsidize, again literally, this person’s ass? And give up my armrest and the ability to lower my tray-table to put my laptop on and work?

And reviewing upon preview, Binarydrone, that’s a wonderfully altruistic worldview you have (and I mean that), but sometimes the sacrifices aren’t worth it to some of us. Six hours being pressed against the outside armrest is too much for me. Six hours of planned work time wasted because I can’t use my computer isn’t worth the sacrifice; this person isn’t paying my salary for the work I’m supposed to be doing, and this person isn’t paying for my paid space I paid for to be able to work for that six hours. Those other “filters” are nice ideally, but some of us are living in a world where our own production matters, and our bosses won’t take the excuse, “I was jammed against the armrest by this large person and couldn’t get my computer out because it poked his tummy which was spilling over into my seat. Sorry. I guess maybe the Johnson account just wasn’t meant to be.”

85

I have no problem with the idea (from a business pov) of any airline charging for two seats if a passenger uses two seats. I also have no problem with the person who buy’s two seats giving the unused portion of one of those seats to a skinny friend (or even a stranger) who doesn’t mind the restricted space.
I know a lot of fat people who have skinny friends. Maybe we could start some sort of co-operative here, huh? In fact, quite a few couples are fat/skinny.
Airlines happy, passengers happy. Cool.
Peace,
mangeorge

86

Well, has anyone raised the argument that you HAVEN’T paid for a seat? Is that what the airlines are selling, a guaranteed x inches of space with armrest, working tray, functioning overhead light, and space to crack open your laptop and do some work? Or are they selling you a promise to haul you from Point A to Point B?

Now, to get you from Point A to Point B in a manner that the FAA approves of, they are going to have to put you in a passenger-designated seat with a working seatbelt. So they can’t just put you anywhere. But are you guaranteed any set amount of space, comfort, or amenities?

I am not sure where I stand on this issue myelf, but it’s worth examining when we make statements like “I am not getting 100% of the seat I paid for.”

87

>> Or are they selling you a promise to haul you from Point A to Point B?

Cranky, your argument has no merit. They may be selling you that but they are free to sell it to you at whatever price they want so they can say:
Children: $70
Students: $100
Seniors: $120
Dumb blondes: $150
Pretty girls: $50
Easy girls: talk to the manager, Mr. Romeo
Fat people or anyone requiring two seats for whatever reason: $220

For different fares they all get to be transported from point A to point B.

Maybe I cannot sue the airline if the fat person next to me is overflowing onto me but I am less likely to fly with them again, that’s for sure.

Speaking of which, on a flight some years ago, some beautiful young woman seated next to me and who thought she was better than the rest of the world, raised a stink because she did not get the choice of food she wanted. She was raising hell with the flight attendant until a few passengers felt the need to intervene and tell her to shut the fuck up. If you do not like the food you can never fly with an airline again but your choice of food is not part of the contract. Idiot.

Another experience involved a man who was seated in a seat from where he could not see the movie screen well and he complained. The aircraft was 2/3 empty and the flight attendant asked him to move to any empty seat he liked and the guy raised a stink because he wanted to see the movie from HIS seat. He got so belligerant that a couple of us has to explain to him rather forcefully that the airline will take you to London but you are not entitled to sit in any specific seat. Idiot.

88

BIANARYDRONE, I capitalize people’s names not because I’m shrieking at them, but to get their attention so they can (if they choose) skim a post to the part that deals with them. The habit of capitalizing dates back to before you could bold or underline stuff and now it’s is just a habit.

I see your point that it would certainly be nice if the airlines would accommodate poeple if they can do so. Certainly it is always to be encouraged that we help each other and make others’ lives easier when we can. I don’t think anyone is arguing against that; we’re simply saying that if the airline feels that other concerns (like making money, or like the comfort of other passengers) outweighs (unavoidable pun) the impulse to be generally nice, there are reasons why that decision is arguably defensible.

89

SAILOR, I’ve had to talk to Mr. Romeo many times…

90

As a five foot ten inch size eight kinda girl, I can attest that I have often paid a little extra for those jeans with the 36" inseam. It ticks me off a bit, because men can buy jeans with a 36" inseam and not pay extra, but I have to get them specially made…but I like that little extra fabric around my feet:)

thx
Ouisey

91

Capitalism, plain and simple.

For those of you who are arguing for accomadation because being large is a disability, it’s usually not. The ADA does not recognize obesity specifically as a disablitlity. . Rarely have courts held that you can’t discriminate based on obesityIn fact the courts that HAVE held that largeness is a disability are almost always dealing with individuals who are “morbidly obese.”

Frankly, to fall under the penumbra of the ADA you MUST be qualified as disabled, do you want to be? It defines a disability as a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities. Is this what you want? What about all the larger persons who claim they are fine and healthy and fit…how can they claim they need to be accomadated (under today’s legal system)?

As mentioned there’s also the issue of voluntariness for the ADA–I understand many of you argue that largeness is not able to be controlled through diet and exercise. But, you can’t possibly be saying this is applicable to MOST persons of size? Can you not admit that some persons of size CAN control their weight?

As such, the law today will not and should not “accomodate” you. SWA is not coming down on you because fat is bad–it’s because fat is bigger…

I’m not sure how many of you have been in the situation where a larger person is in a seat next to you on a full flight where that person is taking up half of your seat…it bothers the person of size and also bothers me, but it wouldn’t matter if the guy had a horn sticking out of his side into my seat–he still NEEDS TWO SEATS to sit without being uncomfortable and to make me comfortable. Now in that instance should SWA sit around, sing Kumbayah and let that person have 2 seats for the price of one if it’s a full flight?–hell no! They’re out to make a profit.

92

Apologies if I upset you, Binarydrone. That wasn’t my intention.

I felt that your comparing seats on an airplane to movie tickets and bus fare was a bit of a stretch. There are many differences between these things, most of which rest on money. For instance, I can handle paying bus fare even if the bus smells bad and is overcrowded. It’s only a dollar and fifty cents, and I can easily take a train or a cab or walk if it’s that much of a hassle. But for someone who’s as broke as I am, a plane ticket is serious bucks and the alternatives are either more expensive or more time-consuming. So for the $175 that it costs to fly me from NJ to GA, I expect to be comfortable. Being squashed isn’t comfortable. I’m a nice person; I won’t raise a stink just because I’m uncomfortable on a two-hour flight. But requiring people to suck it up and deal for the sake of not offending our overweight brothers and sisters doesn’t seem very fair to me.

Like I said, I’m on the fence though. I think the assumption that being overweight is a choice is fueling a lot of the support for this measure and I don’t know if I want to be associated with that belief system. If fatness was viewed as something other than a choice, I don’t think people would be supporting this as vehemently. But I understand the notion of fairness and its relation to this issue. Morality doesn’t come into play IMHO, but fairness does.

93

Some are still missing the point.

SW is not discriminating against DWFAs (double-wide-fat-asses).
If you’re a TWFA(triple-wide-fat-ass) they’ll gladly sell you three adjacent seats. Or a cargo pallet for the desired capacity.

If you use it, pay for it. Period.

94

Well, okay, but what about the converse? Why should I as an individual make that sacrifice? Why can’t the other person sacrifice money for my comfort? The person who takes up two seats

[quote]
knows
[/quotes]
he or she is going to take up two seats, and could easily have bought the two seats without waiting for the humiliation of being forced to . Since he or she finds money to be more important than my comfort, I see no reason why I shouldn’t find my own comfort to be more important.

95

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by doreen *
**
Well, okay, but what about the converse? Why should I as an individual make that sacrifice? Why can’t the other person sacrifice money for my comfort? The person who takes up two seats

Believe me, your point here is well made. This is defiantly a sentiment that I can understand, and honestly one that I continue to struggle with.

To take this to the simplest way of answering the question, and bear in mind that I am speaking as an individual here, not making any judgment about others, I choose to make these sort of concessions because I am able to.

It seems to me that, in general, we as a society are far too interested in our individual comfort and rights, and not interested enough in the feelings/struggles of others. I sort of view this at the same level as offering your seat to an old lady, or letting someone pull in front of you during rush hour. Granted the cost ay be a little higher (no one wants to be crowded on a long flight), but the long term pay off (to your soul, for lack of a better phrase) is worth it (again, in the way that I choose to live my life).

Bear in mind that this sentiment does not come from a vacuum; my step-mother (who raised me from toddler hood) was an immense woman (think the mother in What’s Eating Gilbert Grape). In her case, she did have a severe glandular problem. The fact also was that my family was poor growing up, yet did find it needful to fly once and a while. Being forced to buy her an extra seat would have been a huge burden. The thought of this kind of humiliation for her makes me sort of angry and sad.

And I guess that this brings me to another point. In this debate, my feeling is that there is a sentiment of viewing the obese as nothing more that some obstacle to our comfort that is taking up an inordinate amount of space, and that this should be in some way cause for compensation. The only point that I am (inelegantly) making here is that behind each of those obstacles is actually a person. To put this another way, I have resources to spare (when it comes to this issue) and am willing to share. Others will do as they see fit.

96

But this is a company…we can’t expect it to decide it has resources to spare…

97

I wonder if we sampled people riding on airplanes at this minute, how many so-fat-they’re-spilling-out-of-the-seat people we would find. If it’s just one per plane, I think it may not be necessary to charge people extra. If it’s considerably more than that and it’s obvious these people are responsible for a high level of discomfort by “spilling over”, then I think a change may be in order.

I can see why. But I can also see the point-of-view of the airlines and other customers. If someone is as large as that woman was in “What’s Eating Gilbert Grape?”, she would have to have two seats. If the plane is booked full, that means the customer assigned next to her will be SOL. It’s a small sacrifice to the airlines to allow the woman to have the second seat free, but it’s a sacrifice that accumulates in size if you’re dealing with other large people. If a lot of people require a second seat for their girth, I can understand them charging extra. It unduly cuts into their profits otherwise.

98

If you read carefully the things that I have written throughout this thread, you will see that I have been almost pathologically careful to not state that the company should be expected to adhere to the standards that I am holding myself to.

What I am saying is very simple. Beyond the reductive argument of fat person taking up space and company being within their rights to charge them for it, there is a whole human story. Capitalist companies will always do everything in their power to maximize profits. That is pretty much their whole deal.

What I am saying is that we, as individual and (I hope) ethical beings, do not have to buy in to the argument that just because a company (or person) can legally get away with something that it is right.

99

I’ve been reading all of these comments with interest because I’m a big buy. Retired linebacker big. 6’3’’, 340 lbs.

I can fit in a single airline seat with discomfort. Thanks to the shrinking seat width (they’re really narrower now), and the reduced legroom, flying is a painful experience.

I try to sit with my arms crossed to keep my elbows out of my neighbors lap, I try to request seats where I will be less a burden on my neighboring passengers by getting bulkhead or exit row seats. When possible, I move to a seat with an empty one beside it.

If I lost 100 lbs today, my elbows, shoulders and hips would not shrink. I get thinner but I do not get smaller. My elbows would still be in my neighbors space. My hip bones are still pressed painfully against the armrests.

The simple fact is that airlines, in the quest for slave-ship-dense efficiency have decided that if you’re over 5’10’’ or if you’re over two-hundred pounds then you’re a second class citizen. Since there’s no ADA rule, since all the other airlines are doing it, it’s simply good business at the expense of a portion of the populace.

Many of you that think that size is a choice and therefore should not be accomodated. Given this argument, every person in a wheelchair who is there as the result of choice should not be accomodated either.

“Sir, you’ve got cerebral palsy - please step aboard the lift over here. Sorry, Ma’am, you’re in a wheelchair because you were in a ski accident. That was a bad choice on your part. Please feel free to drag yourself up the staircase over there. I’m sure you understand that the electicity to run the lift twice is not justified on somebody who made the choice to ski without a helmet.”

I’ve been big my whole life. As a result of that choice, I’ve put up with people who think that “All you’ve got to do is diet.” Well, if it was that easy there’d be no fat people. It isn’t easy. It isn’t simple.

“Fat” is one of the last bastions of acceptable predjudice. The “Shallow Hal” movie is the latest insult. Wow - a two-hour long fat joke. Bet it had to be shown in widescreeen, Har, Har, Har. You see it again and again on this board, “Fatty”, “Fatso”, “Wide Load”. How 'bout we discuss race and try using “Spic”, “Nigger”, & “Kike” - but that would be unkind.

I’m not saying that I shouldn’t have to pay for a second seat if I really need it. I’m offended, though, that some of you could object to me sitting beside you. It’s damned uncomfortable for me and awkward for you. Excuse me for my proximity.

100

I know of which you speak; 6’3/175 and more “leggy” than “trunky”. Perhaps people over 6’1 should form a P.A.C. to bemoan the use of the “recline button” used by people in the preceding row with a push of the thumb. Call me a prick; one of the few pleasures I get from flying is wedging my kness into the back of the seat of the row in front of me so the passenger, no matter how hard they push and grunt, can’t recline…It helps pass the time and causes enough of a distraction where sister nicotine isn’t screaming in my ears