ya know, I labored about that line, it started as burger & fries, which of course brought me to that joke, but I took the high road.
glad some one else didn’t
Well, at least you won’t have to vote for him.
Because that choice would be too easy, after watching that Brit spank his likely opponent the other day.
Best of luck, Airman.
I know where you’re coming from. My political outlook has changed drastically over the past several years. Having attended one of the most conservative schools in the nation, I emerged a fairly hardcore right-winger when I graduated in 1994. I voted for Bush in the 2000 election, but by the time 2004 rolled around, I would have voted for a ham sandwich over Bush. These days, I identify most closely with the progressive movement.
The turning point was pretty much the turning point you’re currently experiencing - brought about by thoughtful reflection on the issues and self-honesty. You’re to be commended for keeping an open mind and realizing that your conscience plays a huge role in your personal politics. Wherever it nets out, I admire your honesty.
Ha ha ha. The funny thing is that at work I’m considered a “liberal”. In this area I guess I am, but wow, that’s just not one I hear very often.
Serious question here.
What would be wrong with having all legal (as in the tax, courthouse, law-type stuff) marriages be termed civil unions, while not making any kind of pronouncements about the religious ceremony known as marriage? People who wished to get married according to their religious beliefs could have the type of religious ceremony they want, and sign whatever religious documents go into marriage (I have no idea, as an atheist), but the legal document would say ‘civil union’ for all of them?
Why is it necessary that the government recognize a commitment that is between consenting adults and whatever god/gods they believe in? I mean, if you are Christian and you want to get married, does god not consider it the real thing unless the government has signed off on calling it a marriage?
Nothing currently prevents two people from finding a religious officiant who will declare them married in the ‘eyes of god’. What’s denied is the governmental/legal rights aspect of it. If calling that part a civil union (for all people) would mean that you gain those rights just as much as any straight people have them, and you could still have a minister or priest define you as married according to your religion, why’s that unacceptable?
Separate but equal’s good enough for fairies! We must concede that our human rights are something that reasonable people may disagree on. After all, if you or I got married, within weeks a Southern Baptist minister would have a gun held to his head while he performed gay group marriages involving animals.
People say that over and over, and I don’t understand how anyone expects conservatives to somehow take over the party again. How do you suggest they do so? By continuing to grit their teeth and support Bush’s judicial nominees? No, the best thing that can happen is a mass exodus that will either make the Right realize that the religious nuts they’re giving power to are not worth it, or else form an actual conservative party.
Just don’t lose sight of the fact that Al Franken is as full of shit as a Christmas goose. Do not let him turn you to The Dark Side.
Hey, somebody had to say it with all the Star Wars fervor going on.
These epiphanies wouldn’t really cause emotional turmoil once people start to realize that politicians and pundits, even the ones on your side, are festering sacks of lying smegma, almost to a man. I have no doubt that the people I voted for my entire political life are mostly of a rancid moral nature, I just prefer them over the equally rancid people whom I agree with less on issues.
Good luck Airman, I’m sure you’ll find your way.
Christmas dinner must really suck at your place.
People like me, though, who favor the civil union approach are not talking about having separate but equal for gay people. I’m thinking that the entire legal concept known as marriage should be redefined as a civil union and marriage should be left as a religious construct that people are free to practice according to the tennets of their religion or not practice at all if (like me) they are atheists.
Anybody who wants to have a religious marriage ceremony is allowed to do so, becuase the government cannot tell a religious order that they are not allowed to live according to their faith, and everybody who wants to have a legal civil union to confer rights and responsibilities in terms of the law could do so. They wouldn’t necessarily have to happen at separate ceremonies, either. It could be similar to what we have now, where in addition to whatever religious things the people are doing, they both sign the civil union contract, no matter whether they are straight or gay.
Clothahump, I want to understand where you’re coming from. Can you point out some instances where Al Franken is full of shit? From what I’ve read of him, he backs up his stance with hard research and fact checking. I found some of his writing obnoxious (the chickenhawk comic stuff), but for the most part, I haven’t seen any deceptions.
Airman Doors, I commend you. Over the years, I’ve become more and more centrist in my political views - fiscally conservative, socially liberal. I used to vote Democrat on almost everything, but these days, I’m so tired of the weak-ass garbage the Democratic party is putting out there that I can’t bring myself to do it anymore. While both parties are loaded up with despicable lick-spittles (thank you, British ex-parliamentarian, wherever you are, for throwing some inventive invective back into American politics), there are a few on each side that have ethics, integrity, and the courage of their convictions.
I struggle, too, Airman --and I am a strange mix of liberal and who knows what.
Best to you–I admire you for your honesty here.
As Wolcott from Deadwood (a psychopathic murderer) said:
The US needs a fiscally conservative, socially liberal party. More than ever the two parties have converged. Both want to buy votes with borrowed money. As I said, the Libertarians come closest to this ideal.
Further, the Libertarian idea can win. All they need to do is approach some national threshold (say five percent) of the national vote. Once that happens, one or the other big party will swipe its platform.
The problem is not with conservatism, it’s with the Republican party, IMHO. And iwth Bush, IMHO. And what Revtim said.
I align myself most closely with the Libertarian platform, but no one party fits me ideally so I stay independent.
Hey, I’m all with you there, catsix. Folks who claim that marriage is a religious ceremony should put their money where their mouth is, let the state provide civil unions, and let God handle their marriages. I’m absolutely fine with that. As it is, many people consider themselves married in a religious sense, even if not in a civil sense. (The separatist polygamous Mormons out west, among others.)
But as long as the government provides marriages, I think it’s a symbolic slap in the face to decide that gay folk don’t deserve 'em. I also wonder whether your option would be even more loathesome to the Religious Right, given that they opine that not having the Ten Commandments on courtroom walls is some sort of insult to their religion. I think if the government further reduced its recognition of religious ritual, a lot of those folks would become even more obnoxious.
But aren’t there already civil unions in that sense? I mean, can’t you go to a justice of the peace (whatever that is) and tie the knot?
If by “civil union”, you mean “civil marriage.” Under a civil union law, gay folk wouldn’t get that right. Maybe it’s a mere symbolic issue, but it’s something that matters a lot to some of us. But yes, you can get married without clergy present. There is nothing in the law that requires that.
I second this request. I too, read his books and listen to his radio show. Essentially all his stuff checks out with the other sources I follow, so I would very much like to know where he is full of shit. I truly hope that you don’t just drop that turd and walk away.
Take heart, Airman, I grew up in the midst of an arch-conservative family in Franco’s Spain – but ironically enough, between my early schooling by Jesuits and JH and HS in an overseas American school, I was able to overcome said handicap. I have much to thank them for and I do. In these uncertain times, I do so on an almost daily basis. I very much like where my moral compass is at.
I’ve read Franken’s book as well. Beyond the entertainment value, I’m glad to hear it’s helping folks such as yourself question some of the things you took for granted.
Best of luck on your journey.