I can’t see the Kaiser going for that.
Then I would strongly suggest that you refrain from making comments about the personalities or intelligence of other posters.
You have not yet crossed a bright line rule violation, (although if the lines were hot, your toes would be singed), but a cumulative effect of inserting the word “stupid” and its synonyms into too many posts is to rile up the Mods.
Damuri Ajashi, that goes for you, as well. And since I seem to recall each/both of you receiving a similar admonition from another Mod in the last day or so, I am putting you both on notice that you are about to start collecting Warnings if you continue.
Concentrate of rebutting other posters’ facts or logic and leave the commenary about their intelligence or personalities out of Great Debates.
[ /Moderating ]
Would you have moved Germans and Austrians, most of whom had nothing to do with the war effort, from what were, relative to Palestine at the time, densely populated areas that had been their ancestral homes, to make room for this new Jewish nation?
A one state solution has no need for code. A one state solution is another Arab nation with a minority Jewish population. Been there done that.
The only traditional actor military threat that worries Israel is Iran’s nuclear potential. That is not the security that Israel desires. And tell me, if Joe down the block has been trying to kill you, I mean kill you, literally shooting at you, and he says, tell you what, share your house with me and my friends, let me use the same kitchen and bathroom with you, and I promise that I won’t shoot at you again for a whole year. And my friends might not either. Would you jump at the chance?
Nah. Just more than Wikipedia and cocktail party conversation (are there really cocktail parties any more?) - If you just read through the MidEastWeb link you’d be doing better than most with strongly held opinions. It does fairly evenhanded job and could be read in an hour or so.
I do not believe this is an accurate picture of the respective gentleman’s positions.
For the concise and accurate view on the subject you can rely on me. For example, at the President Obama Cairo speech, where were the well-spoken opinions on the board about the outcome? Dseid, Malthus, Captain Amazing, Jackmannii for examples. Every one silent or wrong. Not me though. “So mean that Sevastopol” while the President is in full and manly flight to arrest the mid-east problem." Correct, yet again, is what I was, which kind of makes me the authority. Fortunately disinformation is in retreat nowadays so there is less call for me to join the debate.
Not an accurate representation. What D A has picked up is that there is a branch of Judaism, mostly in the US, which has support for Israel in all circumstances as its primary tenet. Moreover, this is the politically dominant branch. Its views are vocal and influential in the US.
Dominant? Over what? Other American Jews? American nonJews?
I think you might want to reword the above statement.
As far as I know, there are generally considered to be three main branches of Judaism in the US. Orthodox Judaism, Conservative Judaism, and Reform Judaism with Hasidic Judaism being a part of Orthodox Judaism while Reconstructionist Judaism is somewhat similar to Reform.
I don’t think any of those branches would fit the category you’re referring to, though many different Jews from all three branches would fit into your category.
And in his very next post after declaring his authority, Sevastopol proves that he is not only not the expert, but that he simply has an antipathy to understanding either the Jewish people or the politics of the U.S.
I must’ve missed the urgent message from Judaism Control to get in and post comments about the speech.
At any rate, I was too busy obeying orders from my Pharma overlords to post pro-immunization messages in vaccine threads. It’s so hard when you have multiple Masters.
If I could only get somebody to pay me for posting sequential thread titles over in MPSIMS, I could retire extra-early. 
An obvious ruse.
Jews don’t retire, they just scheme somewhat languidly.
So whose personality or intelligence did I comment on?
You act as if other posters don’t say things that have the cumulative effect of calling me a liar or worse. If THAT is the standard I’d like to revisit some old threads. In fact there was an entire ATMB thread about how one poster in particular was doing exactly these things but hadn’t crossed the line so it was OK but when I do it, its offensive to you?
I don’t recall getting a warning recently. Maybe I missed it.
That claim is pretty silly. Largely because it’s inaccurate.
In any case, you’ve made a point of referring to me, again and again, since you bragged about putting me on your ignore filter. And several times, with false accusations like that I’ve ever called you an anti-Semite, and a distorted retelling of the facts on private land ownership in Palestine, you’re calling me out without being accurate and while having bragged that you aren’t interested in hearing my rebuttal.
If you’d like to ignore me, why continually bring me up?
So I can’t go by news reports about how they feel to say how they feel?
I grew up in NYC and worked at the NYC office of a large law firm, I know plenty of Jews.
I said that I think the average American Jew is more knowledgeable about Israel than the average American. Please try to get your facts straight when you accuse me of something.
I don’t recall asking you. There is only one person I’ve ever asked and THAT was because I was accused of having an agenda, a bias and an ulterior motive in my anti-zionism.
You would be wrong. If wikipedia isn’t enough to form a base of knowledge to take a position on arguments then half of this forum would not be able to participate in debate.
Pffft. You just insist that the only people who can have a debate on Israel are the ones that have read your booklist.
Thats a stupid position. Perhaps you should go back and read the thread that it came from before you comment.
That is a ridiculous characterization and yet another attempt to say that I can’t participate in the debate because I haven’t taken the equivalent of a graduate level course on the subject.
Thats is just a stupid position to take. People take positions on economics and other issues all the time without actually knowing very much about economics and when they are wrong (and they are not always), their error is pointed out to them and it is clear to everyone reading the thread that the original poster was wrong. YOUR theory seems to be that you don’t even have to prove that I am wrong, you just have to prove that you have read more than me to prove that your position is correct and that mine is incorrect.
PFFFT!!!
If I Hellestal can explain monetary theory to someone in a couple of posts then but you seem to think that it is impossible to explain the situation in Israel unless I have read half a dozen books then I call bullshit.
I’m open to new information. My opinions can change with new information. You should try it sometimes, life is easier when you don’t marry yourself to a dogma and allow your opinions to be modified by facts.
Yes, I conceded that. When I am wrong about something, I concede that I am wrong. You should try it sometime. Debates progress a lot further when people are willing to do that.
I noted that the wiki page mentions quite a bit about stuff that happened recently but not so much about what happened during the first intifada. But that may merely be a result of timing, wikipedia wasn’t around during the first intifada.
Member states of the Arab League - Wikipedia. That’s 22 countries right there.
Hamas has offered a 10 year truce.
Your attitude seems to offer absolutely no hope for peace, the status quo is the best we can do.
Some people seem to think it might work:
One last thing.
I don’t mean to come across as a jerk, but could you please remember to capitalize properly and use proper spelling? Occasional typos are one thing, but it’s quite distracting and annoying to read.
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You’ve previously mentioned nothing about news reports claiming instead that you got all your information on the subject from wikipedia and “cocktail party conversations”.
However, yes, I consider news reports from respected organizations such as* The New York Times, The Washington Post*, and BBC far more reliable than wikipedia.
That may be true, but you implied that it was only the “pro-Israel” that was knowledgeable and then mentioned that this board has a lot of Jews.
I merely pointed out that most Jewish Americans would probably have extreme difficulty passing a test on Israeli history.
Also, if you’ll look beyond wikipedia, you’ll notice how many pro-Israeli activists moan about the prevalence of “Arabists” in the State Department and complain about the domination of Middle Eastern Studies departments by radicals.
Since you’re from New York, you may remember the dustup they had at Columbia about five years ago.
None of that makes sense if the people with the most knowledge of the conflict are on the pro-Israel side.
For myself, I’m hardly all that pro-Israel.
First of all, I didn’t provide a “booklist”. I mentioned two books from the early 1980s to show there was quite a bit of criticism of Israel in the media in the 1980s.
In fact, while the books were quite good, they’re also quite dated so I would not recommend reading them to understand the present day conflict.
Anyway no where did I ever suggest that you need to read a whole bunch of books or do “graduate level work” on Israel.
I merely recommend using sources that are more reliable and more respected than wikipedia.
Since I myself have never taken “a graduate level course on the subject” why would I suggest you need to in order to discuss it.
I merely advise that you start by looking at sources other than wikipedia.
It’s not relevant what they think, nor for that matter is it all that clear what the members of the Arab League think. What’s relevant is what the people in Israel and on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip think.
As polls have consistently shown most Palestinians don’t support the idea of a two state solution. Here’s a recent one.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=70d_1271256515
King Abdullah is not a Palestinian or an Israeli and he cares far more about Saudi-American relations than he does about any settlement of the “Palestinian problem”.
Is it really that different than what happened to the Palestinians? Sure I understand that a lot of land was purchased in Palestine but in the scheme of things, I think it was the actions of the Germans that proved that the Jews needed a nation.
The Jews may end up being a minority but it looks like they would at least be a large minority. Still, I get your point, there is zero incentive for Israel to give up its Jewish majority. I just wish that people would stop acting like it would be the beginning of a second holocaust.
How do you think they feel about what’s going on in Egypt right now? What happens if radical Islamists take over the country?
Well to make that analogy more accurate, Joe lives in the basement. It USED to be his house but I moved in and I was stronger than him so I made him live in the basement. He wants to kill me and he shoots at me but he has no chance in hell of hurting me. My neighbors are Joe’s friends and they tried to kick me out a couple of times but I kicked their collective asses so they have more or less given up trying. The neighborhood has agreed that if I let Joe sleep in one of the bedrooms and share the kitchen with him, they will recognize my right to live in the house and Joe has promised to stop trying to hurt me for the next ten years.
I’ve read on THIS thread at least a couple of times that none of Israels neighbors nor Palestinians pose an existential threat to them, which is why they aren’t really in a hurry to make peace, their backs aren’t up against a wall.
I worked my way through the link you provided upthread. What part of that link do you think I didn’t understand? I may be using the term cocktail party loosely, includes wine and cheese receptions (or any reception with hors doeuvres), embassies have a lot of them but there are all sorts of events in the DC area (public and private) that I would call a cocktail party.
You’ve previously mentioned nothing about news reports claiming instead that you got all your information on the subject from wikipedia and “cocktail party conversations”.
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I’m sorry I forgot that I also watch TV and read the newspaper. I think I might have read some of the links provided by people on this board as well.
pfft
I wasn’t the one that claimed that the pro-israel folks were the only ones that were knowledgeable (I’m not sure anyone did).
And the ones on this board? How would they do compared to the average American?
You mean arabists like Madeleine Albright, Henry Kissinger? But I’m not sure what that has to do with the knowledge level on the middle east?
I wasn’t in NY at the time but I guess you’re talking about Ahmedenijad’s speech. What once again, what does that have to do with knowledge levels? (Frnakly I’m not sure what knowledge levels have to do with the debate at all, it seems like this entire debate has been sidetracked into “Does Damuri know enough to be able to express an opinion on the middle east without having read a half a dozen books on the subject”
Can you connect those dots for me, I’m having a little bit of trouble.
I don’t remember saying you were. We’ve been debating rather off topic about my qualifications to have an opinion on the middle east.
You’re not the only one that has suggested books in this thread. If there are facts in those books you want to relay then fine but its a bit much to say “go read up on it and then come back so we can discuss it”
Like I said I’ve read a few website and I’ve talked to a few people whose jobs require them to be fluent on the subject but yeah wikipedia is probably where I get a lot of my info. If you have problems with specific things on wikipedia then go ahead and tell me where they are wrong but just saying “eewwww, you read wikipedia” really sounds a bit snobbish.
Isn’t the arab league “Joe friends” from your analogy a few posts up?
Wikipedia to the rescue: Two-state solution - Wikipedia
Your poll seems to come from this stie:http://www.najah.edu/index.php?page=3225
I accept that the numbers can shift over time.
So wtf does that mean? Are you saying that the arab league’s offer is not genuine? that its all some ploy to get into our good graces?
And this is my point, Dseid.
While not having a bias against a group is (obviously) best, and having one but being committed to changing one’s self is the next along the line, having a bias against a group and then blaming other people for that bias? That indicates just how ‘malleable’ such arguments are.
“Don’t you play that gangsta rap at me, or I’ll hate blacks again, and it’s all your fault! (And I was trying so very hard to overcome my anti-black bias, too. Look at what you’ve done!)”
It’s the same nonsense you see all over the place these days. I think one of Damuri’s wikicites used the argument, for example, that if people point out or claim anti-semitism “too much”, that there can be a “blowback”. What luck, now instead of hating a group and having to justify it, now all you have to say is that members of that group complain about people hating their group, so you get to hate their group. Another nice catch 22. But there’s nothing new under the sun.
I cannot wait for the book (that is probably being edited as we pointlessly discuss here) that will show how general perception of Israel as being the party that did not accept most generous peace offer in decades (if not the most generous ever) and thus shown to be not interested in peace whatsoever is in fact, as the book will claim, the only one who was making progress because routinely saying “No” to a peace offer is apparently a method of enhancing one’s chances of a final peace settlement which is what visionary Israeli representatives were after and not some sort of half-baked offer that, in their opinion, never had a chance with Palestinian masses so they were just saving everyone time and money. Which means those Palestinians are exposed, again as fruitless douche-bags with no idea how to run peace negotiations.
It is rumored, that the stoppage in the book printing is because editors cannot agree which Doper’s post to use on the book jacket - 1 2 3
Hurry, Amazon.com already accepts pre-orders.
- Yes, significantly different. First off we’ve already established that some sizable number of the Arabs in Palestine at time of the influx of European Jews were immigrants into the area as much as the Jews were. And that Jewish immigration did not displace any Arabs until the Partition (and even then it needed not to have caused any displacement, albeit by then both sides were contributing to it). There was enough room for both. Your proposal would have required displacing people who were indeed almost all in their ancestral homes.
- Are you saying that rank and file German citizens, who may have had nothing to do with the Nazi party, who may have even been among the “Righteous Gentiles” for all we know, should be punished merely for their national identity?
- Jews across the world had no ties or claim to Germany; OTOH Jews had always had a presence in Israel/Palestine, despite having been kicked out many years previous, and had always kept returning there as part of the group’s religious system.
- Even if not “really that different than what happened to the Palestinians” (which it would have been), why would it then be acceptable if you think what happened in Palestine was not?
No need to Godwinize. Believing that there would be a large number of hate crimes and terror attacks against Jews (greater in scale than the Muslim on Muslim attacks in places such as Iraq), aimed at driving them out of the country, perpetrated by extremist groups who disagree with the compromises made by their leadership, is not believing that there would be another Holocaust. But it would be very naive to believe that all groups would suddenly play nice.
I’d imagine that some in Israel are very concerned. Still the prospect of Egypt deciding to attack Israel again militarily seems very unlikely even if radical Islamists take over. The more realistic risk is that in your scenario they would arm Hamas. Still the result might end up being getting Egypt and Israel going at it. I don’t think such an outcome can be completely discounted but I think most think that the Islamist powers in Egypt have little desire to go head to head against Israel and would not cross any line that would go there.
No that does not make the analogy more accurate; it makes it much less accurate. But let’s run with it. Joe is in the basement and he believes with all his heart that this is his house that I have stolen from him. Maybe you believe it too. I believe that I have a right to the house though too. With as much of my heart as Joe believes the whole house is his. Joe has tried to murder me and my children and killed my pets and promises that someday he will succeed in killing me and all of my family. The neighbors used to all say it was their house and when Joe left the house they wouldn’t give him a place to stay so he’s stuck in my basement. They given up on kicking me out of the house but feel free to keep egging Joe on. NOW those neighbors say that they’ll stop egging him on if I try to share the house with him and this guy says if I do he won’t try to murder and my family for ten years, but after that … it’s game on. Yeah, great idea. I’m sure to say yes.
Correct. The only potential existential threat is Iran getting a nuclear weapon. Nevertheless threats that are not existential are still very real. There is a very real threat of major terror attacks in Israeli cities that could kill thousands. Not an existential threat but not one that Israel desires to live with.
You claimed that people were asking you to read a whole book list. I responded that even that link alone would be a very reasonable knowledge base. No one has said you are not entitled to an opinion or that you need to read a book list. Just that one or two Wikipedia articles and hearing party talking points are not a definitive knowledge fund in and of themselves. When you’ve asked for where you could learn more, people have volunteered sources they have thought are good critical reviews that have not flinched from bursting the myths of each side. No one has said that you need to read all of them to be informed. Please stop claiming that any one has.
My what a surprise that Dopers who are posting on Israel threads, Jewish or not, tend to people who are informed about the subject some. And what a surprise that people who are informed about a subject tend to bristle at someone who implies that they know enough about it because they read a Wiki article and talk to people at parties.
Seems pretty safe to say that your argument continues on, totally unchanged, regardless of being shown that the entire factual underpinning to your claims was shown to be false. Like citing my post for your ‘book jacket’ joke, although the post was 100% factual… which apparently you don’t like for some reason. Doesn’t that strike you as, maybe, odd?