Can someone explain the whole Israel conflict to me?

Disclaimer: I am not a troll, or even a Jewish individual – I’m a white guy with no real denomination. I consider myself liberal-leaning/atheist otherwise who prefers to judge things by merit of evidence.

That being said, I’ve had a hard time understanding the conflict (in terms of land/politics/anti-semitism/etc). I am making this thread because of the corresponding one over in GD at the moment.

Can someone, in simple terms, please explain to me the nature of the conflict? I’ve looked at Wiki articles and it all seems so complicated. Mainly, I am just embarrassed that I don’t even have a stance on this because I know so little about it.

I can relate, before Wikipedia, it was hard for me to get a complete picture. But are you truly at a loss for even the basics of the conflict? Will Wikipedia really not give you the basics to build on?

Israel exists. Some people don’t want that to be the case.

Regards,
Shodan

I haven’t seen the GB thread yet, but I’ll hop over there when I get a chance. Basically, the antipathy by Arabs toward Isralis began around 1920 when the Jews wanted a state of their own, to be free from perpetual hostility. Some Jews continued to live in the area since biblical times, despite the Roman massacre in the first century ACE. Around the end of the 19th C, two waves of immigrants came to the land and tried to populate very hostile and arid lands. The first wave succombed to malaria and other diseases. plus the back-breaking labor. With the financial aide provided by Rothschild, in the beginning of the 20th C, lands were purchased from the Arab owners (who were glad to get rid of the land) and from the Ottoman empire, ruled by Egypt. Relations were pleasant at first, but hostility arose when the Jews wanted their own state. After WWI, the land was under the Mandate of Great Britain, and it issued a white paper in the 1920s to create the state of Israel. But due to Arab hostility, GB refused to do so. Due to very aggressive behavior of a faction of the Jews (including the bombing of the King David Hotel), GB handed the mess over to the UN, which in1947 declared the land to be partitioned into two states: a state of Israel and a state of Palestine. Not happy with this arrangement, the neighboring Arab nations attacked Israel immediately after it declared itself a state. After a temporary cessation of hostilities, the war resumed, ending in a stalemate, with redrawn borders, slightly more favorable to Israel.

The Arabs attacked Israel several more times. Egypt is particularly hostile to Israel since she was the leader of several of the attacks, and all of them resulting in Israel victories. After Egypt again initiated threatening maneuvers in 1967, Israel launched a preemptory attack, gaining some of the Egyptian land (the Gaza strip) and some land claimed by Jordan (the West Bank). Jordan had no claim to that land legally. It was the biblical lands of Sudea and Judea and occupied by some Jews continously since bibical times.

Egypt entered into a peace treaty with Israel, whereby they regained the Gaza strip. Israel contended that she has the right to maintain the West Bank because it was a defensive war and was not obligated to return that land.

See http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_pa_origin.php for details of the Oslo Accord.

barbitu8 provides a good summary, but forgot about the expulsion of the Palestinians from their homes in 1948 and 1967, as a result of those two wars. Their property was essentially confiscated, and they remain kinda mad about that. Those incidents constitute the problem of Palestinian Right of Return. That is one of the sore points in the conflict today. Add the fact that some people do not want Israel to exist, and racial segregation, and that the two groups consider one another sub-human, and Jewish settlements in contested areas, and heavy financing by the US to one side, et voila, you have the great human conflict of our time.

Moderator note.
Not exactly a helpful response in General Questions.

samclem

Let’s see. There’s Wikipedia. This topic could occupy a whole library.

Start with the Balfour declaration.
As compensation for the wrongs done to Jews over the years, many European nations decided to support the Zionist movement - the movement by some idealistic jews to return to their ancient homeland.

This started in the late 1800’s, and after WWI became a flood, as Britain took over the area from the Ottoman empire.
These settlers bought up some land from the locals.

There is a “common wisdom” that says the land was deserted because it was unfertile until the Israeli settlers arrived, so they are no pushing anyone out; however, this is BS and would probably merit it’s own book or forum to hold all the back-and-forth about it.

there were people in Palestine, Arabs and Bedouins who had been there for hundred or over a thousand years.
As more people crowded in from Europe, there were tensions and fights between the original inhabitants and the newcomers, who were the original original inhabitants.
Fights turned into armed conflict and terrorist/vigilant groups.
So you have ethnic and religious tensions…
There is also the fights both sides had with the British administrators.
Google “bombing the King David hotel”.

After the war and the holocaust, many more jews in Europe decided that the only safety was to have their own country.

The trouble with any “facts” in this is that both side have their own version of even the basic facts.

At first after WWII the flood of immigrants was so bad, the British tried to limit the number of Jews coming into Palestine.

Eventually, the result was the UN divided British Palestine into “Palestine” and “Israel”, in 1948. Immediately after, the first war started - Israel against the Palestiniand and mainly their support, Jordan and Egypt.

According to one side, the Palestinians left of their own accord, after the other Arab countries asked them to get out of the way of the armies according to the other side, they were driven out by Israeli threats, intimidation and attacks. As a result, there were huge refugee camps in the west bank (run by Jordan) and Gaza (run by Egypt) and Israel ended up bigger than the original UN borders.

In 1956 the Israelis egged on by the French and British took the Suez canal when Egypt nationalized it. Then… they had to give it back.

In 1967 the Israelis attacked Egypt, Jordan, and Syria in response to military buildup - they took the Sinai, the West Bank, and Gaza; plus the Golan Heights in Syria. More of the Palestinian refugees ended up in Jordan.

Palestinians (armed militias) in the giant refugee camps were a thorn in the side of local governments. They tried to take over the Jordanian government , and were run outta town, which is how they ended up in Lebanon to destabilze the government there.

In 1973 the Egyptians and Syrians launched an attack on Israel. The 1967 war took a week to decisvely defat the arabs, in 1973 it took a month, during which time the USA and CCCP came close to blowing up the world over the resupply issue.

So the Israelis ended up with a vast area of Arab population - the west bank and Gaza. their choices were limited:
-annex the area, in violation of UN standards, and thus make the population of Israel about 50% arab.
-maintain an apratheid system - you arabs are Israeli citizens, but without the rights of Jewish citizens
-let go of the territories, and let a bunch of crazies and fanatics run their own country and do as they pleased a few miles from major population centers of your country.

Instead, they’ve opted for “none of the above”. They run the areas they control like a prison camp, they take land when they choose to and build settlements on it and kick out the current inahbitants, and they wonder why the locals are suicidally fanatic.

the government of Israel is proportional rpresentation, which means every little pressure group can have their own members of parliament. the religious fantical right insists the whole of Palestine is Israel’s by right, any compromise is wrong, and take every opportunity to assert ownership, like building more illegal settlements in the west bank.

One of the key demonstrators of good faith for the Palestinians is that Israel take steps to limit and start reducing the expansion of housing into Palestinian territory. Due to religious politics, the Israelis don’t seem to be able to do this.

The Palestinians are obstinately crazy; despite bargaining from a position of no strength, they refuse to compromise. No surprise, since the crazies will assainate anyone who suggests compromise. they want anyone whose ancestors lived in Israel before the war to be able to return home, and their descendants, despite that Israel would not allow a sudden huge influx of Arabs. They won’t even remove the fanatical clause in their charter that says Israel must be destroyed. (See “compromise = assassination” above).

So you have 2 sides who cannot or will not compromise, because they have fantical groups that won’t allow it and because (mainly) they don’t trust the other side.

There’s enough juice in the above summary to fuel arguments in great debates for years if not Decades.

Wasn’t Rabin assassinated due to the compromises he made?

Undoubtedly many Arabs left Israel on their own accord. In many instances, the Jews implored the Arabs to stay and build a nation together, esp. in Haifa, which today as 50% Arabs. The total non-Jewish population in Israel is 25%

Many Arabs left Dir Yassen, and it has been said they were forced out. However, the Arabs told them to leave as they were planning to attack the city. On the night of April 9, 1948 the inhabitants of Dir Yassen were surprised by loudspeakers calling upon them to evacuate immediately. That was admitted in a pamphlet issued by the Secretariat-General of the Arab League, entitled “Israel’s Aggression.”

Almost a million Arabs left Israel, but expected to soon return as soon as the Jews were “driven to the sea.” They became refugees, subsisting on aid from the UN and Israel.

Most of the Jews living in the Arab countries were expelled. Noone is talking about their right to return. Those numbers exceed a million.

md2000

You contradict yourself. In one sentence you state that the settlers bought the land, but in the next sentence you indicate the locals were pushed out. It was unfertile, arid lands, and anybody who goes to Israel can see the extent of the irrigation pipes the Jews installed.

The land in the west bank was unoccupied. Israel claims the land they occupied during the war. Since this was a defensive war, the UN charter did not demand they return it. Under the Oslo accord, Israel agreed not to build any new settlements. Israel maintains they haven’t, but merely adding to existing settlements. The Israeli Supreme Court recently said that certain Jewish settlers must be evicted, as that land was occupied by Arabs. All the Arabs living in Israel are Israel citizens with full rights of any citizen. Some hold political offices.

Let’s see. Israel gave up their settlements in the Gaza strip, and forcibly had to evict the settlers, who were compensated. In response to this show of good will, Hezbollah fortified the strip and uses it to bomb and attack Israel.

Israel has, as I noted, shown good will, but the PA (now the PLO) have not shown any. Israel vacated the Gaza strip. The PA was supposed to eliminate the sections in its charter calling for the elimination of Israel. It never has. Arafat said he eliminated those paragraphs, but he did not have the authority to do so. One can reasonably expect that since Israel was implementing the Oslo accord, the PA would do likewise. Only a nation intent on suicide would continue to make concessions with no *quid pro quo[/].

Israel maintains its occupation of the West Bank only because the Palestinians walked away from a generous offer of statehood on 97% of the West Bank, with its capital in Jerusalem and with a $35 billion compensation package for refugees. Had it accepted that offer by President Bill Clinton and Prime Minister Ehud Barak, there would be a Palestinian state in the West Bank. There would be no separation barrier. There would be no roads restricted to Israeli citizens (Jews, Arabs and Christians.) And there would be no civilian settlements.

Mahmoud Al-Zahhar: "We have liberated Gaza, but have we recognized Israel? Have we given up our lands occupied in 1948? We demand the liberation of the West Bank, and the establishment of a state in the West Bank and Gaza, with Jerusalem as its capital – but without recognizing [Israel]. This is the key – without recognizing the Israeli enemy on a single inch of land.
"This is our plan for this stage – to liberate the West Bank and Gaza, without recognizing Israel’s right to a single inch of land, and without giving up the Right of Return for a single Palestinian refugee.
[…]

The Romans did not completely decimate the Jews in that area and some survived since biblical times, living along the fertile areas near the river valleys. Most of the land was dry and not tillable. After centuries of pogroms, in the late 19th century, some European Jews decided that they needed a nation of their own, free from persecution, the beginning of the Zionist movement. Some thought emigrating to America was the answer, but others insisted they needed a nation of their own: a wise idea in view of current inflammatory anti-Semitic movements in this country, particularly in some colleges and universities. They persuaded some rich European Jews to finance the purchasing of land in that area. The land purchased was gladly sold by the Arab owners, since it was dry and not fertile. When the owners could not be found, the land was purchased from the Ottoman empire. The initial immigrations in the 1890’s were unsuccessful as the conditions were too harsh, requiring backbreaking work, malaria, and other illnesses. However, in the early 1900’s, Theodor Herzl, a journalist, reinvigorated the movement. Contrary to comments I’ve heard from many, the Jews and Arabs have not been “at it” for thousands of years. At first, they got along well (until WWI). After all, it was the Arabs who sold them the land and they appreciated the irrigation the Jews did. Anyone traveling to Israel now will see the vast irrigations of the land.

However, it was not the intention of the Jews to just settle in the land. They needed a nation in which they could feel safe. After the end of the Ottoman empire at the end of WWI, the British received a mandate from the League of Nations over that land and agreed that the Jews needed a nation in the land. This was set forth in a “white paper” by Lord Balfour, in 1917, in a letter to Lord Rothschild: “[A] declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved, by the Cabinet - His Majesty’s Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object.” (A History of Israel, Howard M. Sachar, Alfred A. Knopf, Inc., 1976, p. 109)

Britain failed to implement that white paper. In 1930, it reached treaty agreement with the Feisal government in Baghdad for Iraq to enjoy juridically sovereign status, under the proviso that British military installations remain. On the same basis, Abdullah, installed as emir of Transjordan (now Jordan) in 1922, was allowed to preside over his own domestically autonomous government, with assurances of future sovereignty. These agreements were extracted by a festering Arab nationalism that erupted intermittently in violence and that threatened not merely to undermine the Western presence in the Middle East but to become an instrument in the hands of Britain’s European adversaries. (ibid., p.194)

As background information, a militant faction of the Jews, the Irgun Zvai Leumi (National Military Organization) was formed in 1931 to retaliate against Arab violence. Primarily due to the actions of the Irgun, Britain finally relented and turned the entire matter over to the UN, allowing for the establishment of the state of Israel. Prior to that establishment, many of the Arabs living in that portion of Palestine designated for the state of Israel, left. Most left because that was the lesser of two evils. They did not want to be caught in a cross-fire due to the impending attack by the Arab nations and the Arab nations promised that they would return soon, as soon as the Jews were driven to the sea, which has not yet happened. In many areas, particularly in Haifa, the Arabs were urged to stay and many did so. Arabs comprise 25% of the Israeli population today, and some hold government positions. (Israel is a democracy and anyone can run for office, as we can here.) By some miracle, the small nation of Israel held off four Arab countries to a draw, primarily due to the fact that many of the Israeli fighters had been in the Resistance Movement during WWII and that the Arab nations did not coordinate well due to petty rivalies.

Forty-two years has passed since the “Six Day War” which resulted in Israeli control over the Sinai Peninsula, Gaza Strip, West Bank, eastern Jerusalem and Golan Heights, the so-called “occupation,” although when the PLO (both Hamas and Fatah) and Hezbollah refer to the “occupation” they include the state of Israel. Israel voluntarily gave the Gaza Strip back, forcefully, in many instances, removing the Jewish residents. Instead of building a viable, peaceful community, Hamas came in and put in military installations to bombard Israel.

Many claim that since that land was occupied by a military operation, International Law requires that it be returneded as it existed prior to the operation. However, International Law makes a clear distinction between land “occupied” during a war of aggression and land taken as a result of a defensive war. Egypt, Syria, and Jordan all attacked Israel.

Some parts of the West Bank would have been part of Israel as defined by the UN Partition Plan, but were overrun in 1948: Kfar Etzion and the Old City of Jerusalem. The League of Nations Mandate explicitly recognized the right of Jewish settlement in all territory allocated to the Jewish national home in the context of the British Mandate. The British Mandate covered the area that is currently Israel, all of the disputed territories, and Jordan. These rights under the British Mandate were preserved by the UN, under Article 49 of the UN Charter.

There are mistaken claims that Israel’s control of these territories violates the Fourth Geneva Convention. The Fourth Geneva Convention was adopted August 12, 1949 by the international community in response to Nazi atrocities during WWII. It outlaws the resettlement by an occupying power of its own civilians on territory under its military control, specifically “individual or mass forcible transfers.” The only forced mass transfers were against Jewish communities in 1948. After the Six Day War, Israel did not expel a single Arab community from land it now controlled. The “Occupying Power” may also not “deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population” to territories taken in conflict. Israel has never forced Jews to move to the territories. There is no obligation for Israel to prevent voluntary settlement by its civilian population.

The most controversial clause in the UN Security Council Resolution 242 is the call of “Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict.” This is linked to the second unambiguous clause calling for “termination of all claims or states of belligerency” and the recognition that “every State in the area” has the “right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force.” The resolution does not make Israeli withdrawal a prerequisite for Arab action. Moreover, it does not specify how much territory Israel is required to give up. The omission of “all the” territories occupied was deliberate. The Soviet delegate wanted the inclusion of those words and said that their exclusion meant “that part of these territories can remain in Israeli hands.” The Arab states pushed for the word “all” to be included, but this was rejected. The Arab League then rejected the entire resolution. Nonetheless, it was approved by the Security Council.

Israel has withdrawn from 95% of the territories when it gave up the Sinai and then Gaza. The Arab reaction was not to make peace but instead the “Three No’s” of the Khartoum Conference of August 1967: No peace with Israel. No recognition of Israel. No negotiation with Israel.

Since launching a terror war in 2000, Palestinian living standards have undoubtedly declined as the Palestinian leadership adopted violence ahead of nation building and investing in civil society. Contrary to some claims in the media, “occupation” is not the primary reason for the current plight of the Palestinians. When Israel captured the West Bank and Gaza Strip in 1967, officials took measures to improve the conditions that Palestinians had lived under during Jordan’s 19-year occupation of the West Bank and Egypt’s occupation of Gaza. Universities were opened, Israeli agricultural innovations were shared, modern conveniences were introduced, and health care was significantly upgraded. More than 100,000 Palestinians were employed in Israel and paid the same wages as Israeli workers, which stimulated economic growth.

The Arab propoganda, inducted into their children, is that Jews are sub-human. Israel does not hold that Arabs are sub-human.

I think Egypt should concede the Sinai Peninsula to the Palestinians, call that Palestine.

Israel should pay for the land and relocation.

Trade Gaza for Golan Heights.

Israel and Palestine exist equally.

…and then it begins…again :rolleyes:

A large share of the controversy goes back to World War I. All of the area we’re talking about used to be ruled by the Ottoman Empire. In WWI, the Ottoman Empire sided with Germany. Great Britain encouraged various groups to support the British cause by making various promises (often times with different British officials talking to different groups with no co-ordination). It was easy for Britain to make promises because they were offering Turkish territory.

At the end of the war the Ottoman regime collapsed and Turkey abandoned its territories outside of Turkey itself. The British ended up controlling Palestine. At this point both Jewish and Muslim groups came forward and reminded the British that they had been promised Palestine if they supported Britain in the war and now they expected Britain to honor its promise. Britain had essentially promised the same territory to more than one group.

So both sides felt they had a legal claim to the land: the British had promised it to them, they had kept up their side of the bargain, and now that the British owned the land it should keep up its end of the deal. So you ended up with a three-way conflict with the Jews and Muslims both trying to get the British to leave while also taking control from the other side.

This lasted until 1948 when Britain decided it had had enough. It divided the territory in half, gave each side a half, and quickly left (because that plan had worked so well in India a year earlier). The result was that both sides feel they only got half of what they were entitled to.

HA! Try reading Jewish newspapers.

Britain did not divide the land in half. The UN did. Both Britain and France had mandates over lands formerly in the Ottoman empire, which lost the lands due to WWI.

I do. They don’t.

That’s unfair. What else could Britain do in India? Leave the continent undivided and allow brutal ethnic cleansing to decide the outcome? It did the only thing it could, which was to partition off the lands in which Muslims were the majority. Of course, that left many Muslims in Hindu dominated India and the resulting violence was horrific but even almighty God couldn’t have prevented that. You could have come up with a better plan? I’d be interested to hear it. (And please don’t tell me that you would have got all the leaders round a table to sort things out. That’s exactly what Britain had been doing for years before partition.)

Palestine was an equally complicated dilemma. Some problems just aren’t amenable to neat and tidy solutions.

It is an absolute joke that this hasn’t been moved to GD. The guy might as well have posted his question to the Fox News website.